Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

Kikapu,

You mention 2000 pages, the figure I have is more like 9000 pages. A great chunk of that was devoted to the status of the British bases. Another chunk to the armaments the two armies, Greek and Turkish were supposed to keep.

One mystery that will probably never be solved- did Koffi Annan read all 9000 pages of the plan? Did De Soto? Did anyone of the primary personalities involved? Is there any ONE person in the world to have read the whole thing cover to cover? Probably not, but the ballot in the referendum included wording that the voter had read the plan and understood it!

Like you said, typical insurance salesmanship!

Nikitas,

A thousand page here and a thousand page there, pretty soon you're talking serious mess.

This is what happens in big court trials. Since each side can request information from the other, and that information has to be given, what generally happens, it is mixed in with thousands of pages of useless information, so that it gets lost in the pile. You are not obliged to tell the other person where each requested information is, that is on them to find it. As far as they are concerned, they have complied with the courts ruling to turn over all relevant documents. What Halil is doing, is ignoring the pile of shit that was hidden from everyone. As far as he is concerned, everything was just Rosy. In other words, "TRUST ME" was the message from Kofi and the Gang.

As usual you are talking out of your propaganda arse Kikapu and Nikitas seems to be hell bent on doing so as well.



The 9,000 pages were bashed out by several hundred Cypriot lawyers and they were just the federal laws and the annexes to the original Annan Plan which was 193 pages. 6,181 people were working on this whole plan to make sure that every 'T" was crossed and you guys make out that you knew better

You have a go at people that knew what it was all about but admit that not one person has read it all the way through. All I have now is an image of you two posing in that famous way of two snakes eating their own tail.

The fact of the matter is that Tpap was present when the final FIFTH amendment of the Annan Plan was drafted and to claim like Kifeas did, that he did not have enough time to negotiate the plan in an effective way is just lying for the sake of it.


It has been shown that every single refugee would have bee satisfied with the result and you guys are still arguing about the overall effect and the positive results it would have achieved for the GCs is scandalous.

We want political equality and we will have it so you had better get used to it. The Anna Plan will resurface and you will have to make up your minds once and for all. It may be under another name but all that work will not go to waste.

Zan,

And just like most people, you never read any part of the Annan Plan either, but you thought it was a "Great Plan" 3 years after it was voted down...

Go Figure..................

[Kikapu]

[size=18]Kikapu, I can't really see how your answer ties up with what I wrote.[/size] True, Turkey was the intransigent part for many years, after 19974. In fact, the conventional wisdom was that the issue was solved in 1974.

Thus, to take it from where you left it, the Greek Prime Minister Costas Simitis, together with Glafkos Klerides (both, men of great vision), worked out a comprehensive plan to try to force Turkey to change her tune. However, this could only materialise if Cyprus became a member of the European union. The European Union could only allow Cyprus to join the exclusive club with her problem unsolved only if it remained steadfast on a course for solution on the basis of the Makarios-Denktash and Kyprianou-Denktash agreements.

Simitis and Klerides worked hard to convince the EU of our sincere wish for solution. We had good friends in the EU at the time, because of our sensible policies and together we managed to make Turkey backtrack (for the first time since 1974) and admit that in Cyprus there existed a problem that needed to be solved. Until then, Turkey threatened loudly that if Cyprus was ever accepted into the EU, her response would be unprecedented. We convinced the EU that we could not remain forever hostages to Turkey since we were the part that sincerely wanted solution. The idea was that once we were in we could pressurise Turkey, with the help of our friends, to shed her intransigence and come to the negotiation table to look for solution. You see, Turkey had her sights too on the European Union now.

For a while things moved the way they were planned. The people of Cyprus on both sides of the divide were very excited. There was an air of expectation that something really good would happen. The gloom was begging to lift until the environment changed dramatically. In Greece Simitis stepped down and George Papandreou lost the elections. In Cyprus Klerides was replaced by Papadopoulos in February 2003. Papadopoulos, a well known nationalist and chauvinist who never saw the Turkish Cypriots as our compatriots, set his sights on spoiling the day. He managed to trick Christofias that he would work to solve the Cyprus issue on the basis of the Annan plan (no. 3 at the time which he would negotiate to better it, as he was a self confessed great negotiator). He also fooled our friends in the international community who bent over backwards to get us into the European union, with the Cyprus issue still unsolved. From the first day he took the wheel he made it his life mission to bankrupt the negotiations. Because he did not want to appear as the part that was responsible fro the breakdown in the negotiations, he sent an urgent letter to the SG of the UN in December 2003 asking for talks on the double because he was sure that if Cyprus became a member of the EU with her problem unsolved, we would head straight for Europartition, as he called it. Papadopoulos never banked, however, on the possibility that a Turkish Cypriot leader would call his bluff.

When Talat said, right lets get down and solve it, cold sweat run down the forehead of Papadopoulos. For him now, only one issue existed. To negotiate the plan in such a way as to make the people take the responsibility for its rejection. This immoral tactics, he thought, would allow him to say that look, we did our best but the plan is so bad it cannot be accepted by the people. What else can I do? I tried my best to arrive at a viable and functional solution but the one I was offered was simply not good enough.

Cyprus is now a member of the EU and Turkey is trying to get in. Some people seem to think that we alone can shape the future of Turkey and that the accession of Turkey depends on Cyprus. This is a misconception to say the least. We have lost our leverage by not sticking to an agreed agenda and thus we carry no weight in the EU now. Not only because we are small but also because we are light headed. Turkey's future will not be shaped by Cyprus. In fact, when we tried to question her credentials we were pushed aside like we were nobody. Chapter after chapter is opening for Turkey and we are just sorry onlookers. Our position in the EU is getting more precarious by the day and now we are seen to side with the Russians and go against the wishes of our stakeholders.

Kikapu, I hope you see that we are nothing in the EU. We are the laughing stock of the other 26 members and we have lost the great leverage we had on Turkey and thus we lost all hope of finding a solution. The Papadopoulos government has condemned Cyprus to partition because the people that surround Papadopoulos are the extreme nationalists who brought on us the calamity in the first place!

Bananiot,

Well written post.

I was only agreeing with you, that I do not expect any good solutions to come down for a settlement, until Turkey is at the EU's doorstep for an entry. You say that the RoC is a "light weight and untrusted" by other EU members and it is true that the RoC was pushed aside by the "EU Body" during Turkey's "open chapters" hearings last year, but the RoC does have her Veto Power which is her "Trupt Card". If it comes down to RoC losing part of Cypus to Turkey, she will Veto Turkey's bid to the EU despite not being very popular with the main players in the EU Club, just as she has done regarding Kosovo's Unilateral Independence wish this week. In fact Bananiot, I'm certain some EU members expect the RoC to use her Veto Power to keep Turkey out, just so that they do not have to get their hands "dirty". So don't expect the RoC to be vilified to much, if she does Veto Turkey's bid, if Turkey does not seek a better deal on Cyprus than the Annan Plan.

[Kifeas]

Kikapu, I can't really see how your answer ties up with what I wrote. True, Turkey was the intransigent part for many years, after 19974. In fact, the conventional wisdom was that the issue was solved in 1974.

Thus, to take it from where you left it, the Greek Prime Minister Costas Simitis, together with Glafkos Klerides (both, men of great vision), worked out a comprehensive plan to try to force Turkey to change her tune. However, this could only materialise if Cyprus became a member of the European union. The European Union could only allow Cyprus to join the exclusive club with her problem unsolved only if it remained steadfast on a course for solution on the basis of the Makarios-Denktash and Kyprianou-Denktash agreements.

Simitis and Klerides worked hard to convince the EU of our sincere wish for solution. We had good friends in the EU at the time, because of our sensible policies and together we managed to make Turkey backtrack (for the first time since 1974) and admit that in Cyprus there existed a problem that needed to be solved. Until then, Turkey threatened loudly that if Cyprus was ever accepted into the EU, her response would be unprecedented. We convinced the EU that we could not remain forever hostages to Turkey since we were the part that sincerely wanted solution. The idea was that once we were in we could pressurise Turkey, with the help of our friends, to shed her intransigence and come to the negotiation table to look for solution. You see, Turkey had her sights too on the European Union now.

For a while things moved the way they were planned. The people of Cyprus on both sides of the divide were very excited. There was an air of expectation that something really good would happen. The gloom was begging to lift until the environment changed dramatically. In Greece Simitis stepped down and George Papandreou lost the elections. In Cyprus Klerides was replaced by Papadopoulos in February 2003. Papadopoulos, a well known nationalist and chauvinist who never saw the Turkish Cypriots as our compatriots, set his sights on spoiling the day. He managed to trick Christofias that he would work to solve the Cyprus issue on the basis of the Annan plan (no. 3 at the time which he would negotiate to better it, as he was a self confessed great negotiator). He also fooled our friends in the international community who bent over backwards to get us into the European union, with the Cyprus issue still unsolved. From the first day he took the wheel he made it his life mission to bankrupt the negotiations. Because he did not want to appear as the part that was responsible fro the breakdown in the negotiations, he sent an urgent letter to the SG of the UN in December 2003 asking for talks on the double because he was sure that if Cyprus became a member of the EU with her problem unsolved, we would head straight for Europartition, as he called it. Papadopoulos never banked, however, on the possibility that a Turkish Cypriot leader would call his bluff.

When Talat said, right lets get down and solve it, cold sweat run down the forehead of Papadopoulos. For him now, only one issue existed. To negotiate the plan in such a way as to make the people take the responsibility for its rejection. This immoral tactics, he thought, would allow him to say that look, we did our best but the plan is so bad it cannot be accepted by the people. What else can I do? I tried my best to arrive at a viable and functional solution but the one I was offered was simply not good enough.

Cyprus is now a member of the EU and Turkey is trying to get in. Some people seem to think that we alone can shape the future of Turkey and that the accession of Turkey depends on Cyprus. This is a misconception to say the least. We have lost our leverage by not sticking to an agreed agenda and thus we carry no weight in the EU now. Not only because we are small but also because we are light headed. Turkey's future will not be shaped by Cyprus. In fact, when we tried to question her credentials we were pushed aside like we were nobody. Chapter after chapter is opening for Turkey and we are just sorry onlookers. Our position in the EU is getting more precarious by the day and now we are seen to side with the Russians and go against the wishes of our stakeholders.

Kikapu, I hope you see that we are nothing in the EU. We are the laughing stock of the other 26 members and we have lost the great leverage we had on Turkey and thus we lost all hope of finding a solution. The Papadopoulos government has condemned Cyprus to partition because the people that surround Papadopoulos are the extreme nationalists who brought on us the calamity in the first place!

Only a schizophrenic or an alien would probably have written the above whole bunch of nonsense!

[Piratis]

Bananiot, you got several points wrong:

1) Countries act based on their interests, there are no "friendships" of the kind you suggest. Cyprus joined the EU because Greece threatened to veto the expansion if Cyprus was not included, not because we kissed their ass so nicely that they let us in as you suggest.

2) The excitement with the Annan plan was only among TCs who saw a pro-Turkish plan that would finally legalize their dream of partition. Where did you see the excitement among Greek Cypriots? In your dream?

3) Cleredes was ousted exactly because he got elected by lying to the Cypriot people and then he brought something like the Annan partition plan. Papadopoulos was elected to do his best to reverse 15 years of failed policies by Vassiliou/Cleredes, but obviously a lot of damaged had been done already. At least with Papadopoulos we managed to avoid the worst.

About Turkey joining the EU, there is nothing more that we need to do than provide a good excuse. Turks dream about EU is as impossible as the TCs dream of legal partition like Annan plan. It will just never happen.

[boomerang]

way ahead of you on this one...take your self for example...the southern hemisphere already exported the rotten apples...and to the US...the land of the la las...

Hey, I've got no beef with the good old U.S. of A. I'm proud to be a part of both. Are you jealous because you aren't?

Allow me to clarify my answer to you...You suggested that the bad apples be exported to Australia, southern hemisphere...And I said way ahead of you...the southern hemisphere already exported the bad apple, meaning you, to la la land...I hope this time is clear for you to understand...

And about your reply...Why would I be jealous...I visited the US many times I was offered a job there, I declined as my standard of living would have gone backwards...

Whats your excuse for migrating...Standard of living going up or going down?...I would say going down coz you excell at the sport...

Does the phrase "go drown yourself" mean anything to you?

Oh expat have I hurt your feelings? or your so called non existing intellect?

PS...How is the gumboot sharing in the US?

[Viewpoint]

VP,

I hope you do realise, there are only 3 options for the TC's.

a) stay as we are now...a de facto state without recognition

b) try to achieve a BBF the way you want it, which the GC's will not go for it, or

c) a True Federation with no Guarantors from outsiders. Let the EU be our guidance in doing the right thing to all Cypriots.

I really do not believe a Partition with your own percentage of Cyprus is in the cards. The recent survey said that, the way I interpreted the results and also, Turkey will never allow it, as long as she wants to enter the EU. Aside from that, I do not think the "TRNC" will see the light of EU either. So basically you will be stuck next to a EU member to the South and Turkey to the North, who will start treating you like a "overstaying one's welcome" king of relationship, not forgetting, the North will be hard to separate from the mainland. I don't care how much the TC's welcomed the Turks to Cyprus in 1974, they will not be able to stand them, but will be powerless to do anything about it. I do not think that's the kind of Independent "TRNC" is what the Partitionist are envisioning. Given the latest survey, I would say, that overwhelming majority of the TC's, do not want a Partition, but a Partition is what they may end up with, if both sides can agree with the land distribution and compensation. I'm really not trying to put a damper on your partitioning wishes, but be prepared for the worse.

Now I know, that your first choice is to have b)..the BBF, because you will have everything you want as well as Turkey's power to give you security, but what may be good for you, may not be at all good for the GC's, so you better scrap that idea.

I really do not think you want to keep the way things are right now much longer, so what is your next option. That will have to be C) a True Federation with all of its perks. You may even help get Turkey into the EU so that as a EU member, they can be a plus in Cyprus as suppose to being an occupational force. Of course, in this arrangement, you will not be able to become your own "EFENDI", but you will more or less in the Northern State of Cyprus. Progress takes time to even come close to having a TC as a president. But does that really matter, since the TC's will have some power that their votes in a coalition government will be very significant. Welcome to True Democracy and not the mickey mouse type that is practiced all over Middle East, South Asia, as well as Central and South America. In my humble opinion, I think the "TRNC" deserves a complete partition and left to be alone. Lets see what they will do with their small population in trying to build any kind of sustainable economy. In the meantime the RoC will move forward within the EU, and the "TRNC", well, who knows.!!!

Your arrogance and despot attitude is to a level of nausea, you appear to just make things up as you go along according what misconceptions you have nurtured in your own brain. You seem to think you know more about the TCs than we do and you have not interacted with us in our own environment for over 43 years, this hardly makes any kind of expert at best you are just stabbing in the dark thinking yet you know best.

There is always another option which is fight on a political level for recognition, whether you feel its obtainable or not does not change anything, its just your viewpoint which we as civilized people have to respect but in turn demand you to show the same respect for our viewpoint however different it maybe from yours.

Ok VP, have it your way and continue living in the "never never land" fantasy that you will get what it is that you actually want for a settlemen over the wishes of the majority.

Have you not gotten a clue yet, that your actions over the last 34 years has been forced on Cypriots and it has not been agreed on by the majority, and unless the majority of Cypriots also agree with what it is that you want, forcing your will on them will not be accepted.

I thought I would remind you of the obvious.

The current situation was not the sole responsiblity of the TCs, the GCs were more to blame and have to stand up and say say we were wrong, 1974 changed everything, we are now the majority in the TRNC tasting self rule and best of all a peaceful exsistence without being discriminated against and made ro feel second class citizens.

The GCs are the majority in the south where they have what they always wanted a TC free GC state, run by GCs for GCs.

[Kikapu]

The current situation was not the sole responsiblity of the TCs, the GCs were more to blame and have to stand up and say say we were wrong, 1974 changed everything, we are now the majority in the TRNC tasting self rule and best of all a peaceful exsistence without being discriminated against and made ro feel second class citizens.

The GCs are the majority in the south where they have what they always wanted a TC free GC state, run by GCs for GCs.

Wrong again........

The TC's are neither the majority nor do they rule themselves, and you do not have a "state" of your own since most the land belongs to others, nor have you lived in a peaceful exsistence but rather in security through the occupation by Turkey of Northern Cyprus.

Feel free to dispute the above if you wish.

[Viewpoint]

The current situation was not the sole responsiblity of the TCs, the GCs were more to blame and have to stand up and say say we were wrong, 1974 changed everything, we are now the majority in the TRNC tasting self rule and best of all a peaceful exsistence without being discriminated against and made ro feel second class citizens.

The GCs are the majority in the south where they have what they always wanted a TC free GC state, run by GCs for GCs.

Wrong again........

The TC's are neither the majority nor do they rule themselves, and you do not have a "state" of your own since most the land belongs to others, nor have you lived in a peaceful exsistence but rather in security through the occupation by Turkey of Northern Cyprus.

Feel free to dispute the above if you wish.

Wrong again you foreigner, we have rights on this island as well and the land distribution maybe a bone of contention but is clearly marked out as a result of GC actions which brought about 1974 when everything changed forever. The GCs wanted a TC free state to run themselves and they got what they wanted. Dont forget we also lost 63% of our island to greedy GCs who wanted to gift the whole island to Greece.

As for self rule we are all citizens of the TRNC and everyone can vote in a democratic fashion, we do not discriminate like the "RoC" who have only just allowed TC citizens vote after EU pressue.

Peaceful exsistence is where people are not killed and mamed everyday like 1963.....and where people are free to go about their daily lives without being discriminated or treated like second class citizens. This may come to you as bit of a shock or may even make you feel sick but I have to inform you as you have not been to the TRNC we have been living peacefully since 1974 to the current day.

[Kikapu]

The current situation was not the sole responsiblity of the TCs, the GCs were more to blame and have to stand up and say say we were wrong, 1974 changed everything, we are now the majority in the TRNC tasting self rule and best of all a peaceful exsistence without being discriminated against and made ro feel second class citizens.

The GCs are the majority in the south where they have what they always wanted a TC free GC state, run by GCs for GCs.

Wrong again........

The TC's are neither the majority nor do they rule themselves, and you do not have a "state" of your own since most the land belongs to others, nor have you lived in a peaceful exsistence but rather in security through the occupation by Turkey of Northern Cyprus.

Feel free to dispute the above if you wish.

Wrong again you foreigner, we have rights on this island as well and the land distribution maybe a bone of contention but is clearly marked out as a result of GC actions which brought about 1974 when everything changed forever. The GCs wanted a TC free state to run themselves and they got what they wanted. Dont forget we also lost 63% of our island to greedy GCs who wanted to gift the whole island to Greece.

As for self rule we are all citizens of the TRNC and everyone can vote in a democratic fashion, we do not discriminate like the "RoC" who have only just allowed TC citizens vote after EU pressue.

Peaceful exsistence is where people are not killed and mamed everyday like 1963.....and where people are free to go about their daily lives without being discriminated or treated like second class citizens. This may come to you as bit of a shock or may even make you feel sick but I have to inform you as you have not been to the TRNC we have been living peacefully since 1974 to the current day.

Wrong again you foreigner

That's a first for me, because I have never been called that. I have been called everything else under the sun, but not that about my country of Birth, Cyprus.

After that statement, I really do not need to address the rest of your comments, since you cant tell the truth from a lie.

[Viewpoint]

The current situation was not the sole responsiblity of the TCs, the GCs were more to blame and have to stand up and say say we were wrong, 1974 changed everything, we are now the majority in the TRNC tasting self rule and best of all a peaceful exsistence without being discriminated against and made ro feel second class citizens.

The GCs are the majority in the south where they have what they always wanted a TC free GC state, run by GCs for GCs.

Wrong again........

The TC's are neither the majority nor do they rule themselves, and you do not have a "state" of your own since most the land belongs to others, nor have you lived in a peaceful exsistence but rather in security through the occupation by Turkey of Northern Cyprus.

Feel free to dispute the above if you wish.

Wrong again you foreigner, we have rights on this island as well and the land distribution maybe a bone of contention but is clearly marked out as a result of GC actions which brought about 1974 when everything changed forever. The GCs wanted a TC free state to run themselves and they got what they wanted. Dont forget we also lost 63% of our island to greedy GCs who wanted to gift the whole island to Greece.

As for self rule we are all citizens of the TRNC and everyone can vote in a democratic fashion, we do not discriminate like the "RoC" who have only just allowed TC citizens vote after EU pressue.

Peaceful exsistence is where people are not killed and mamed everyday like 1963.....and where people are free to go about their daily lives without being discriminated or treated like second class citizens. This may come to you as bit of a shock or may even make you feel sick but I have to inform you as you have not been to the TRNC we have been living peacefully since 1974 to the current day.

Wrong again you foreigner

That's a first for me, because I have never been called that. I have been called everything else under the sun, but not that about my country of Birth, Cyprus.

After that statement, I really do not need to address the rest of your comments, since you cant tell the truth from a lie.

Have you been to the TRNC? have you interacted with TCs in their own environment? NO.

The British living in the TRNC are more TC than you will ever be, you a diluted individual who had lived away from Cyprus for so long that makes you a foreigner, a charlie as your GC brothers what that means.