Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kifeas]

VP, in case I forgot to tell this to you, I have stopped arguing with assholes and prostitutes!

[Viewpoint]

VP, in case I forgot to tell this to you, I have stopped arguing with assholes and prostitutes!

Thats your choice but seeing I am neither, do you support bloodshed?, the signs tell us you do? Why are you trying to avoid answering?

[joe]

It is with great sadness that I have personally come to the conclusion that there is no

Kifeas,

I am sure you wouldn't feel this way if there was an honorable, viable and just plan that would reunify the island. The problem is compounded when Greek Cypriot politicians can not speak with one voice. Debate is good; acknowledging different points of you is the essence of a great democratic country. But partisan bickering when it comes to the Cyprus issue? Thats just a recipe for disaster.

The Americans have a saying:

(Partisan) politics stops at the water's edge.

What needs to be done!

There must be a consensus across the political spectrum on what a future settlement should be and most importantly, let the international community know exactly what red lines can not and will not be crossed.

[Kifeas]

It is with great sadness that I have personally come to the conclusion that there is no

Kifeas,

I am sure you wouldn't feel this way if there was an honorable, viable and just plan that would reunify the island. The problem is compounded when Greek Cypriot politicians can not speak with one voice. Debate is good; acknowledging different points of you is the essence of a great democratic country. But partisan bickering when it comes to the Cyprus issue? Thats just a recipe for disaster.

The Americans have a saying:

(Partisan) politics stops at the water's edge.

What needs to be done!

There must be a consensus across the political spectrum on what a future settlement should be and most importantly, let the international community know exactly what red lines can not and will not be crossed.

The problem Joe is that there is no way "an honorable, viable and just plan that would reunify the island" can possibly ever become available, having in mind the totalitarian, Turkish nationalist and near-fascist social and state ideology the TC community unquestionably and unconditionally subscribes to, and which also wants to by all means institutionalize it and impose it on the GCs too!

I used to be a fervent supporter of a united Cyprus; even if this had to be under the umbrella of a federative bi-communal nation-state! Unfortunately, once I got to realize how deeply devoted to the kemalist Turkish nationalist “ideals” the TC community is (the vast majority of it,) and once I got to study and discover what a corrupted near-fascist social and state “ideology” Kemalism is, I came to the conclusion that the two communities and their worldviews are incompatible to each other! Almost from another planet!

To give you a hind, it is because of this ideology that the little girl (pupil) in Turkey the other day was denied the award for being an excellent student in her class, and send off in tears to seat down, just because she was wearing a headscarf! It is because of this corrupted Turkish nationalist “ideology” that 8 primary school children have been punished with a three day ban from school, after making a drawing using the colours Red, Yellow & Green (supposedly) Kurdish national colours! It is for this evil and corrupted kemalist ideology that the Kurds (the so-called mountain Turks) of PKK want to separate their community and territories from the rule of Turkey! And yet, we have the oxymoron situation where -while the Kurds of Turkey want to separate themselves from it, some GCs to dream and aspire on how to unite themselves with it and send almost 100,000 GC refugees to go and live under its institutionalised domination!

[Kikapu]

VP,

I hope you do realise, there are only 3 options for the TC's.

a) stay as we are now...a de facto state without recognition

b) try to achieve a BBF the way you want it, which the GC's will not go for it, or

c) a True Federation with no Guarantors from outsiders. Let the EU be our guidance in doing the right thing to all Cypriots.

I really do not believe a Partition with your own percentage of Cyprus is in the cards. The recent survey said that, the way I interpreted the results and also, Turkey will never allow it, as long as she wants to enter the EU. Aside from that, I do not think the "TRNC" will see the light of EU either. So basically you will be stuck next to a EU member to the South and Turkey to the North, who will start treating you like a "overstaying one's welcome" king of relationship, not forgetting, the North will be hard to separate from the mainland. I don't care how much the TC's welcomed the Turks to Cyprus in 1974, they will not be able to stand them, but will be powerless to do anything about it. I do not think that's the kind of Independent "TRNC" is what the Partitionist are envisioning. Given the latest survey, I would say, that overwhelming majority of the TC's, do not want a Partition, but a Partition is what they may end up with, if both sides can agree with the land distribution and compensation. I'm really not trying to put a damper on your partitioning wishes, but be prepared for the worse.

Now I know, that your first choice is to have b)..the BBF, because you will have everything you want as well as Turkey's power to give you security, but what may be good for you, may not be at all good for the GC's, so you better scrap that idea.

I really do not think you want to keep the way things are right now much longer, so what is your next option. That will have to be C) a True Federation with all of its perks. You may even help get Turkey into the EU so that as a EU member, they can be a plus in Cyprus as suppose to being an occupational force. Of course, in this arrangement, you will not be able to become your own "EFENDI", but you will more or less in the Northern State of Cyprus. Progress takes time to even come close to having a TC as a president. But does that really matter, since the TC's will have some power that their votes in a coalition government will be very significant. Welcome to True Democracy and not the mickey mouse type that is practiced all over Middle East, South Asia, as well as Central and South America. In my humble opinion, I think the "TRNC" deserves a complete partition and left to be alone. Lets see what they will do with their small population in trying to build any kind of sustainable economy. In the meantime the RoC will move forward within the EU, and the "TRNC", well, who knows.!!!

[Kikapu]

VP,

I hope you do realise, there are only 3 options for the TC's.

a) stay as we are now...a de facto state without recognition

b) try to achieve a BBF the way you want it, which the GC's will not go for it, or

c) a True Federation with no Guarantors from outsiders. Let the EU be our guidance in doing the right thing to all Cypriots.

I really do not believe a Partition with your own percentage of Cyprus is in the cards. The recent survey said that, the way I interpreted the results and also, Turkey will never allow it, as long as she wants to enter the EU. Aside from that, I do not think the "TRNC" will see the light of EU either. So basically you will be stuck next to a EU member to the South and Turkey to the North, who will start treating you like a "overstaying one's welcome" king of relationship, not forgetting, the North will be hard to separate from the mainland. I don't care how much the TC's welcomed the Turks to Cyprus in 1974, they will not be able to stand them, but will be powerless to do anything about it. I do not think that's the kind of Independent "TRNC" is what the Partitionist are envisioning. Given the latest survey, I would say, that overwhelming majority of the TC's, do not want a Partition, but a Partition is what they may end up with, if both sides can agree with the land distribution and compensation. I'm really not trying to put a damper on your partitioning wishes, but be prepared for the worse.

Now I know, that your first choice is to have b)..the BBF, because you will have everything you want as well as Turkey's power to give you security, but what may be good for you, may not be at all good for the GC's, so you better scrap that idea.

I really do not think you want to keep the way things are right now much longer, so what is your next option. That will have to be C) a True Federation with all of its perks. You may even help get Turkey into the EU so that as a EU member, they can be a plus in Cyprus as suppose to being an occupational force. Of course, in this arrangement, you will not be able to become your own "EFENDI", but you will more or less in the Northern State of Cyprus. Progress takes time to even come close to having a TC as a president. But does that really matter, since the TC's will have some power that their votes in a coalition government will be very significant. Welcome to True Democracy and not the mickey mouse type that is practiced all over Middle East, South Asia, as well as Central and South America. In my humble opinion, I think the "TRNC" deserves a complete partition and left to be alone. Lets see what they will do with their small population in trying to build any kind of sustainable economy. In the meantime the RoC will move forward within the EU, and the "TRNC", well, who knows.!!!

[Nikitas]

"our federation can only reflect the realities of Cyprus including the criminal mistakes we made in the 60's"

and so according to Bananiot the Cyprus BBF must be different from those of other countries, like the USA or Australia that also have a federal system. But, Bananiot, both of those countries, Australia and the USA have "criminal mistakes" in their history- the destruction of native people. Cyprus is not unique in having had a civil war, and if you compare the figures with other civils wars, both nett and percentage wise, ours was a minor one. Yet other countries like the USA, Spain, Greece, England (in the 17th century) recovered from their wars and have fully democratic societies without any intermediated stages of bastardised democracy as per the Annan plan. Someone in the forum said why not adopt the EU constitution for both communitied and be done with it. Really, why not? Is Annan, or rather Lord Hannay, the ture author of the plan, a greater expert on democracy than the whole of the EU?

[halil]

Three advantages of the Annan peace plan

By Martti Ahtisaari and Gareth Evans
Published: TUESDAY, APRIL 20, 2004
BRUSSELS: No peace deal is perfect, but we can say with some confidence — having been involved in quite a few of them in Europe, Africa and Asia — that the Kofi Annan plan before Cypriot voters on April 24 is much better than most.
Compared to some of its recent predecessors in Europe, it has three striking advantages. First, the proposed system for return of refugees and restoration of property rights is detailed and concrete. Within a few months of the Annan plan coming into force, those displaced in 1974 will be able to begin returning to their homes. In three and a half years, over half of them will be able to return under Greek Cypriot administration, and many others will be able to return under Turkish Cypriot administration. The remainder will at least have their property rights restored.
Greek Cypriots are especially concerned on the issue of property rights, but they might contemplate how, nine years on from the Dayton Peace Agreement in Bosnia-Herzegovina, property rights are still disputed, and only a minority of refugees have returned home, while the story for Serbs displaced from Croatia is even less happy.
Second, the Annan plan convincingly deals with the question of demilitarization. Elsewhere in the European neighborhood, in Northern Ireland for example, the peace process goes on stalling precisely because the commitments of the parties to political cooperation were never sufficiently closely linked to the actions of armed groups on the ground.
By contrast, in the Annan plan, the local forces in Cyprus on both sides are to be completely disbanded. Turkish troops on the island will decrease immediately from today's estimated 45,000 to 6,000, and ultimately 650 or fewer; and will be balanced by Greek troops and monitored closely by the United Nations.
Third, the proposed structure of the government of the United Cyprus Republic makes sense, both in terms of workability and in terms of the imminent prospect of European Union membership. It has its complexities, but compares favorably with the mess of multiple layers of governance with ill-defined and competing powers which exists in both Bosnia-Herzegovina and the neighboring state of Serbia and Montenegro.
Of course, the Annan plan owes its strength in part to the very length of the negotiations. Talks over the shape of a future Cyprus state have been going on for decades, rather than the much briefer time in which the former Yugoslav states have endeavored to settle their constitutions. The effort with Cyprus has clearly paid off.
There is much in this plan that both sides will find problematic. But the fact is that there is no better alternative that can be reached by negotiation, now or in the foreseeable future. A failure to seize the opportunity of a peace deal now, against the imminent time-scale of EU membership, will mean years of further stalemate, with no refugees returning anywhere, continued armed presence on the island, and an EU member state government that controls only 60 percent of its own territory.
A vote in favor will deliver a united island inside the European Union, over half of those displaced returning to their homes within a short time, a demilitarized environment, and a much better chance for the longstanding climate of simmering resentment to be transformed into one of peaceful cooperation.
Of course, there is the possibility that only one side will accept the plan, but for the negative voters in such an outcome, international sympathy will be almost nonexistent. Those on that side can expect to be portrayed as spoilers or wreckers, not the best foundation for winning a better deal in the future.
And if both sides vote against, nobody in the international community can be expected to want to put much effort into achieving a permanent resolution of the Cyprus problem for a very long time to come. Nor will it become any easier to find countries willing to deploy personnel to patrol the boundary and keep the peace between them.
Of course the compromises both sides have to accept are not easy, and there will always be those — particularly local leaders — who will find it more comfortable to argue for the status quo than to accept any concession. But this is a unique chance for a lasting, civilized peace, and we hope very much that Cypriots on both sides of the line recognize, before it is too late, just how unique a chance it is.
*
Martti Ahtisaari, former President of Finland, UN envoy and EU negotiator, and Gareth Evans, former foreign minister of Australia, are chairman and president, respectively, of the International Crisis Group.

[Viewpoint]

VP,

I hope you do realise, there are only 3 options for the TC's.

a) stay as we are now...a de facto state without recognition

b) try to achieve a BBF the way you want it, which the GC's will not go for it, or

c) a True Federation with no Guarantors from outsiders. Let the EU be our guidance in doing the right thing to all Cypriots.

I really do not believe a Partition with your own percentage of Cyprus is in the cards. The recent survey said that, the way I interpreted the results and also, Turkey will never allow it, as long as she wants to enter the EU. Aside from that, I do not think the "TRNC" will see the light of EU either. So basically you will be stuck next to a EU member to the South and Turkey to the North, who will start treating you like a "overstaying one's welcome" king of relationship, not forgetting, the North will be hard to separate from the mainland. I don't care how much the TC's welcomed the Turks to Cyprus in 1974, they will not be able to stand them, but will be powerless to do anything about it. I do not think that's the kind of Independent "TRNC" is what the Partitionist are envisioning. Given the latest survey, I would say, that overwhelming majority of the TC's, do not want a Partition, but a Partition is what they may end up with, if both sides can agree with the land distribution and compensation. I'm really not trying to put a damper on your partitioning wishes, but be prepared for the worse.

Now I know, that your first choice is to have b)..the BBF, because you will have everything you want as well as Turkey's power to give you security, but what may be good for you, may not be at all good for the GC's, so you better scrap that idea.

I really do not think you want to keep the way things are right now much longer, so what is your next option. That will have to be C) a True Federation with all of its perks. You may even help get Turkey into the EU so that as a EU member, they can be a plus in Cyprus as suppose to being an occupational force. Of course, in this arrangement, you will not be able to become your own "EFENDI", but you will more or less in the Northern State of Cyprus. Progress takes time to even come close to having a TC as a president. But does that really matter, since the TC's will have some power that their votes in a coalition government will be very significant. Welcome to True Democracy and not the mickey mouse type that is practiced all over Middle East, South Asia, as well as Central and South America. In my humble opinion, I think the "TRNC" deserves a complete partition and left to be alone. Lets see what they will do with their small population in trying to build any kind of sustainable economy. In the meantime the RoC will move forward within the EU, and the "TRNC", well, who knows.!!!

Your arrogance and despot attitude is to a level of nausea, you appear to just make things up as you go along according what misconceptions you have nurtured in your own brain. You seem to think you know more about the TCs than we do and you have not interacted with us in our own environment for over 43 years, this hardly makes any kind of expert at best you are just stabbing in the dark thinking yet you know best.

There is always another option which is fight on a political level for recognition, whether you feel its obtainable or not does not change anything, its just your viewpoint which we as civilized people have to respect but in turn demand you to show the same respect for our viewpoint however different it maybe from yours.

[Bananiot]

Nikitas, are you saying that Australia and the USA have BBF's? The mere fact we are looking at BBF as the possible solution indicates that special characteristics are always taken into consideration and the kind of federation that fits one occasion does not fit the other.