Cyprus-Forum.com

[phoenix]

Phoenix,

Having one official language means that all people are forced to deal in that language, since all official and legally binding documents are so written. In short it forces the "other" side to deal in that language in their day to day business.

The approach in Cyprus was to have three official languages, Greek, Turkish and English. Having adopted English Common law as our legal system meant that court proceedings were mostly in English. It is no accident then that the legal profession in Cyprus was the most uniform and integrated.

But part of the effort in finding a new settlement is the sidestepping of English, the language of the former colonialists and give equal status to the two main languages of the island. Considering that both sides speak a dialect of each of their mothertongues this is a formality more than a substantial concession by either side. In reality GCs will go on speaking Cypriot Greek and TCs will go on speaking Cypriot Turkish and I find nothing wrong with that.

Once again Nikitas, people are free to speak whatever language and dialect they prefer. That's NOT an issue.

In setting the groundwork for self-determination I suggest we abandon outdated, unworkable resolutions and have only ONE OFFICIAL language.

For the already stated reasons, it has to be Greek.

There you go again Phoenix mou. You are losing the argument on the language issue and integration and now its the old chestnut of 'self-determination'.
You know what will happen now? The TCs/TS will vote for one and the GCs will vote for the other. There is your 'self-determination. One and the other = language/partition/segregation, you name it. If I were you (thank god I am not ) I would have waited for a settlement and then go for 'self determination'.

Unfortunately for Pheonix she is too honest for her own good. Why chastise someone for not being decpetive Deniz?

Sorry DT, I couldnt identify the word above.
Please allow me to gloat a bit, (justified or not). She is not an easy target to hit. I feel she is backtracking a tad, and its a good time to 'attack' in the nicest possible way. She loves it really.
I think the word is deceptive. Got it now. Do you mean I should be grateful that she is not 'deceptive'? I dont know about that. Would you understand how much pain she inflicts on this poor soul?

I was not backtracking, I was simplifying to allow the slower ones to catch up.

I would re-iterate my points, but I think my keyboard will jump up and thump me on the head if I do.

BTW . . . You are the last TC I would inflict any pain on

[halil]

What if the Greek Cypriots had voted in favor of the Annan plan in the 2004 referendum?
1. The bi-zonal, bi-communal “United Cyprus Republic” would have been officially declared and internationally recognized.

2. In June 13, 2004, the members of the federal parliament, senators representing the people and the members of the European Parliament from both founding states would have been elected.

3. The federal parliament would be formed.

4. Four Greek Cypriots and two Turkish Cypriots with full voting rights, together with two Greek Cypriots and one Turkish Cypriot without voting rights, would form the federal presidential council.

5. The president of the “United Cyprus Republic” would be the Greek Cypriot member of the presidential cabinet until June 2, 2008, the last day of the fifth alternation period, comprising 300 days each. Alternatively, in each odd-numbered period, a Greek Cypriot member of the presidential cabinet would become president and a Turkish Cypriot would take the post in each even-numbered period.

6. The disposition of immovable property would have already been started, and the Turkish Cypriot founding state would have handed over at least 25 villages to the Greek Cypriot founding state in the areas agreed and defined in the Annan plan.

7. Some 25,000 Greek Cypriots would have vacated their pre-1974-owned condominiums and the progressive return of a further 60,000 Greek Cypriots choosing to live in the territories of the Turkish Cypriot founding state would be completed. A total of 85,000 Greek Cypriots would now be residing in the north.

8. Turkish visitors from Turkey would need an EU entry visa to visit Cyprus.

9. Some 36,500 Turkish troops would already have left the island according to the “Progressive Return Plan” as defined in the plan, and the remaining troops would need permission to leave from the UN.

10. The Greek Cypriot pre-1974 land owners would have regained possession of one-third of their lands before the end of 2008.

11. The Greek Cypriot pre-1974 land owners would start receiving monetary compensation for the remaining two-thirds of their lands at the beginning of 2009.

12. An “autonomous Greek Cypriot region” consisting of four villages on the Karpaz Peninsula would already be established and all the pre-1974 residents of these villages and their descendants would be living there under their own rule.

13. Demilitarization of both founding states would be completed and the local armed forces of both states, the Greek National Guards and Turkish Armed Forces (TSK), would be demobilized.

14. Some 12,000 Turkish Cypriot civil servants would lose their jobs due to the adaptation of EU rules and regulations.

15. Greek Cypriot bureaucrats would be occupying all the higher offices in the government structure of the United Cyprus Republic, until the necessary training of the Turkish Cypriots was fully completed, taking a minimum of four years.

16. The most important offices in civil aviation, airports, the central bank, land registry, telecommunications, customs, immigration, coast guard and maritime would be administered by the federal government, in which almost 90 percent of the high level bureaucrats would be Greek Cypriots.

These are only some of the benefits the Greek Cypriots would have received if they had voted “Yes” on the referendum. Unfortunately the 1796 “Megalo Idea” of the Hellenic world caused Papadopoulos to dream of establishing a “Unitary Greek State” in Cyprus since 1960 and accordingly led him to reject all proposals paving the way to a sustainable peace in Cyprus.

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/yazar ... rno=128986

Halil,

Please DO take this the wrong way. You are printing bunch of useless information about the AP, that no body wants to know, because it has been D-E-A-D long time ago. All you doing is showing us what the GC's refused and what the TC's agreed to, but all your posts are just the main points in the 153 page plan, but not all the remaining 2,000 pages of fine print details that may or may not make your main points workable or not, and unless you are also willing to tell us about all the small prints, you are just Propagandising here. You are doing nothing more than saying, look we the TC's said YES to all this and you the GC's said NO to all this. Sure everything looks great on the surface, but what about what lay beneath the surface, and around the corner, and next week and next year. You are acting like a "dishonest Insurance salesman" who puts all the great reasons why your customer should buy your insurance policy, but you are not showing them all the small prints as to how it would effect their Insurance Policy when the time comes to collect on their claims. You will say to your clients, "yes, that is true what I told you, but it was your responsibility to read the fine prints, so don't blame me that you can't collect on your claim". So Halil, the point is, stop with your silly Propaganda postings of all the "juicy fruits of the Annan Plan" and show us where all the
"sour grapes" were hidden.

KİKAPUCUĞUM,
Yavrucuğum bir gün gelecek , o günleride göreceksin , ağlama o zaman bebeğim çok geç olacak. kim propagandacı ,kim maşa o zaman göreceğiz.
ağlama gızım ağlama üç gün galdı bayramcığa.

you can translate it for your loved ones ...................

Halil,

Thanks for the touching words. It got me right in the Heart.

Halil my friend, you are the one who is crying over spilt milk. Stop trying to lick it off the floor. It's not worth is now (AP) and it was not worth it then. You know it was crap and had no future in it, but that suited the Partitonist just well, so let it go çanim, gözlerinden öpeyim, just let it go.

Bayramin çok kutlu olsun, senin ve aylenin, Halil.

Kikapucuğum,
I am very happy mate with my life . Uzaktan gazel okumak çok güzeldir.
You must like the word PARTİONİST . Keep on doing it . It helps at all .
For me and for my children Annan plan was perfect . I don't think so next plans will be worse than this . It can!t be go back from present stage .
If leaders were honest they should sit and study on the plan but they didn't do it . I studied the plan Kikapucuğum , It was better than my enclave life time . You never had it those days . You were left the island or force to go away . We all knowing 1963 -1974 jail days . How our life was in danger . If your grand pa or grand mums are still in life asked them. I am not telling you that we are happy to getting any body's property or belongings , we are happy for gaining our freedom mate . U don't understand it . Life was different for u .living in Switzerland or rest of the other countries.
Now again 21!st December is coming KİKAPUCUĞUM , I am waiting your comments on bloody Noel night. You wouldn't say any think . It was our fault . Wasn't it ? It was bloodt TMT . Is it ?
KİKAPUCUĞUM , we wanted open new page to our lifes with AP .We wanted start with new system again GUZUM . We will strugle for it A EFENDİ . We would like to be our own EFENDİ . KİKAPUCUĞUM .
you scaring from your own shadow . You talking with others mouth . to talk about us , you should live in NORTH. You should experience everything with us than I can understand You . We all know everything is not perfect . Show me in the earth there is a one place that it is under the isolation from every where . even we are under the isolation by the Turkey as well . We all know it . Still we are struggling to get over it . Annan plan was giving all of it for us . We were going to be our own EFENDİ.

Senin, ailenin ve tüm forumdaki arkadaşların gelecek bayramını bu vesile ile candan kutlarım . İYİ BAYRAMLAR

[denizaksulu]

Phoenix,

Having one official language means that all people are forced to deal in that language, since all official and legally binding documents are so written. In short it forces the "other" side to deal in that language in their day to day business.

The approach in Cyprus was to have three official languages, Greek, Turkish and English. Having adopted English Common law as our legal system meant that court proceedings were mostly in English. It is no accident then that the legal profession in Cyprus was the most uniform and integrated.

But part of the effort in finding a new settlement is the sidestepping of English, the language of the former colonialists and give equal status to the two main languages of the island. Considering that both sides speak a dialect of each of their mothertongues this is a formality more than a substantial concession by either side. In reality GCs will go on speaking Cypriot Greek and TCs will go on speaking Cypriot Turkish and I find nothing wrong with that.

Once again Nikitas, people are free to speak whatever language and dialect they prefer. That's NOT an issue.

In setting the groundwork for self-determination I suggest we abandon outdated, unworkable resolutions and have only ONE OFFICIAL language.

For the already stated reasons, it has to be Greek.

There you go again Phoenix mou. You are losing the argument on the language issue and integration and now its the old chestnut of 'self-determination'.
You know what will happen now? The TCs/TS will vote for one and the GCs will vote for the other. There is your 'self-determination. One and the other = language/partition/segregation, you name it. If I were you (thank god I am not ) I would have waited for a settlement and then go for 'self determination'.

Unfortunately for Pheonix she is too honest for her own good. Why chastise someone for not being decpetive Deniz?

Sorry DT, I couldnt identify the word above.
Please allow me to gloat a bit, (justified or not). She is not an easy target to hit. I feel she is backtracking a tad, and its a good time to 'attack' in the nicest possible way. She loves it really.
I think the word is deceptive. Got it now. Do you mean I should be grateful that she is not 'deceptive'? I dont know about that. Would you understand how much pain she inflicts on this poor soul?

I was not backtracking, I was simplifying to allow the slower ones to catch up.

I would re-iterate my points, but I think my keyboard will jump up and thump me on the head if I do.

BTW . . . You are the last TC I would inflict any pain on

Awww God, bless you Phoenix mou; you are going all soft on me now. I already feel your warth , its amazing. Is your husband of a jealouse disposition btw.?

[Kikapu]

Kikapucuğum,
I am very happy mate with my life . Uzaktan gazel okumak çok güzeldir.
You must like the word PARTİONİST . Keep on doing it . It helps at all .
For me and for my children Annan plan was perfect . I don't think so next plans will be worse than this . It can!t be go back from present stage .
If leaders were honest they should sit and study on the plan but they didn't do it . I studied the plan Kikapucuğum , It was better than my enclave life time . You never had it those days . You were left the island or force to go away . We all knowing 1963 -1974 jail days . How our life was in danger . If your grand pa or grand mums are still in life asked them. I am not telling you that we are happy to getting any body's property or belongings , we are happy for gaining our freedom mate . U don't understand it . Life was different for u .living in Switzerland or rest of the other countries.
Now again 21!st December is coming KİKAPUCUĞUM , I am waiting your comments on bloody Noel night. You wouldn't say any think . It was our fault . Wasn't it ? It was bloodt TMT . Is it ?
KİKAPUCUĞUM , we wanted open new page to our lifes with AP .We wanted start with new system again GUZUM . We will strugle for it A EFENDİ . We would like to be our own EFENDİ . KİKAPUCUĞUM .
you scaring from your own shadow . You talking with others mouth . to talk about us , you should live in NORTH. You should experience everything with us than I can understand You . We all know everything is not perfect . Show me in the earth there is a one place that it is under the isolation from every where . even we are under the isolation by the Turkey as well . We all know it . Still we are struggling to get over it . Annan plan was giving all of it for us . We were going to be our own EFENDİ.

Senin, ailenin ve tüm forumdaki arkadaşların gelecek bayramını bu vesile ile candan kutlarım . İYİ BAYRAMLAR

Halil,

Just when I have almost given up hope of honesty to come through your posts, you hit me with a Bulldozer with your Brutal Honesty, and quiet frankly, I'm lost for words, but I still managed to find some to respond to your post.

For me and for my children Annan plan was perfect

And that's what we are talking about Halil, the Annan Plan was perfect for the TC's. It was perfect for you at others expense. Now do you understand why the GC's said NO to the AP.? Now that you admit to us the AP was perfect for you, it must not have been perfect for the other party, or even anywhere as good, and perhaps even less than good, so that yours would be perfect. I really don't know if I should say anything else on this, but let me try all the same.

You see Halil, the perfect AP that you got was not just the "luck of the draw" was it.?? You did not just draw a number from a hat and just happened to be luck, was it.?? No it was not Halil. The AP was designed that way, so that you got the best possible deal at the expense of others. Do you think that was fair or did you also think that those who were going to lose out so that yours would be perfect, were going to say YES to Annan Plan, so that you can take as much as possible at their expense. Would you have said to such a plan, where you would give yours so that others would be perfect for them at your expense....I really do not think so.

If leaders were honest they should sit and study on the plan but they didn't do it . I studied the plan Kikapucuğum

I don't believe anyone studied the plans Halil. If you read the 153 pages of the main points of the plan plus the 9,000 pages sub-texts according to Nikitas, all in ONE WEEK from the time it was presented and Referendum took place, than you are better person then everyone else. But the main point does not chance a thing Halil, because at the end, the plan was in the favour of the TC's, and you already admitted to that. Just what exactly were the TC's going to lose by voting on the AP........anything at all.??? Just to sweeten the deal for the TC's, all those who did not bother to read all 9,153 pages of the AP, a promise was made to lift the isolation by the EU and possibly the UN if the TC's said YES to the AP. Can the TC's have gotten it a better deal than that you may asks yourselves. ?? Well, the answer was yes...yes if the GC's had said yes to the AP, which would have made your perfect Annan Plan a reality at the expense of others....Now do see why the GC's said NO to the AP.

I studied the plan Kikapucuğum , It was better than my enclave life time . You never had it those days . You were left the island or force to go away . We all knowing 1963 -1974 jail days . How our life was in danger

You are right Halil, I left Cyprus in 1964, but others stayed behind, like my mother and 6 siblings, last ones leaving in 1968, and non of them hold any hatred towards the GC's. Yes, those were the bad days for us, so what is it that you want to say, that it was a fair exchange for those days with a Annan Plan that gave you everything that you wanted. If so, what sort of a claim should the GC's make for the 1974 Invasion and destruction caused by Turkey, just because group of criminals from Greece and Cyprus wanted to overthrow the government to form Enosis with Greece. Why didn't Turkey just come and restore order and leave. In fact, why didn't Turkey come and restore order back in 1963 through 1974. Why did she wait so long, so that you were suffering in the enclaves? Are you not mad at Turkey and Britain for failing in their Guarantor Duties to protect the Republic of Cyprus from all enemies, Foreign and Domestic? You do have a complaint Halil from your times in the enclaves, but it is not with me...sorry.

I am not telling you that we are happy to getting any body's property or belongings, we are happy for gaining our freedom mate . U don't understand it . Life was different for u .living in Switzerland or rest of the other countries

The point is, you are holding other peoples property Halil, whether you like it or not. Every person should be free to live his or her lives normal. The reason why we never had a normal life in Cyprus is because of the way the 1960 Constitution was written. It was doomed to fail, just as the 2004 Annan Plan, was doomed to fail. Funny enough, they were both written by the same "Enemies of Cyprus". Today, the world is a different place than the past, but it appears you want to hold today’s generation guilty of the crimes committed by those in the past. You want to punish those today, for the mistakes of the past. Who should also pay for our crimes and mistakes Halil? You cannot just point the finger to other without taking some of the blame also...but it appears, that you can just do that.

Now again 21!st December is coming KİKAPUCUĞUM , I am waiting your comments on bloody Noel night. You wouldn't say any think . It was our fault . Wasn't it ? It was bloodt TMT . Is it ?

My newly weds cousin's husband was taken away by the GC's that night Halil, and was never seen again. She gave birth to their child without a father in 1964. We were taken as prisoners at gunpoint in Kucuk Kaymakli and detained along with 700 TC's at a school building for a week, so yes Halil, I will remember that night. If you have been reading Birkibrisli's Diary, and you should, you will also find out what the TMT was up to in those days. So you see Halil, nor my family or me was spared from hardship. Yes it is true, that some had it worse than others and some got killed, but you are in no position to tell others that your hardship was worse than someone else’s...I will not allow you to do that Halil. You were no special case than anyone else, so do not try to preach to me that you should be given special consideration over my family, anyone else’s misfortunes or me for that matter. We were all victims of the short-sighted in the past, as there are victims today, due to short- sighted of those today in position of power.

Uzaktan gazel okumak çok güzeldir.....(preaching from afar is very nice)..Sarcasm intended by Halil.

When you can accuse others the same who support you and the "TRNC" from afar, then I will take you accusation of me of doing the opposite more seriously, but until then, you do not have the credibility to accuse one and not the others.... it’s only fair.

Annan plan was giving all of it for us. We were going to be our own EFENDİ.....(Boss)

Once again Halil, thank you for your Brutal Honesty for a chance. The AP was giving everything to you, the TC's and the "TRNC" so that you will be your own boss, and hell with everyone else. No more Cyprus, just a zoo for a country where hatred and fighting would have continued until the next 1963 and 1974 would have repeated itself. That's what your "Perfect Annan Plan" would have given us. But of course, with the Turkish Military Power behind you, perhaps that's exactly what you were hoping for. Sorry Halil, Bayram does not come every day to have your wishes to come true. Three times a year is enough as it is. If you really want to have a decent Cyprus so that we can all live peacefully, you need to ask for a deal that is fair for all of us, and if you don’t believe in that, than I don't know why you invite GC's to have dinners and drinks with you, and even more puzzling to me, that they would want to with you. To each to their own, I guess.

[74LB]

Kikapu,

In an early part of this particular thread, Bananiot mentioned the following 'items' which would have been in place by now had the AP been accepted.......

The restricted part of Varosha would have been returned along with Morphou and Kokkina as well as some occupied areas that belong to Athienou, Mammari, Pila and Troulloi. Also the villages of Ayios Nikolaos, Petrofani, Selemani, Varisia, Achna, Petra, Ayios Georgios of Lefka, Galini, Loutro, Piroi, Timpou, Acheritou, Ammadia, Avlona, Kalopsida, Kontea, Limnitis, Lisi, Makrasika, Kserovouno, Gerolakkos, Kato Zodia, Pano Zodia, Mia Milia, Ayia Marina, Ayios Ermolaos, Ayios Vasilios, Agridaki, Argaki, Assia, Asomatos, Vatili, Filia, Gaidouras (Nea Sparti), Kalo Chorio, Karavostasi, Karpasia, Katokopia, Kontemenos, Kormakitis, Kira, Larnaka of Lapithos, Mirtou, Nikita, Pentayia, Potamos Kampou, Prasteio of Morphou, Prasteio of Famagusta, Pirga, Sisklipos and Skilloura.

The people of Karpasia would return in an autonomous region and 1/4 of the Akrotiri base and 3/4 of the Dekelia base would have been returned to the Greek Cypriot component state. Today, that is, 3.5 years after the referenda, 34 thousands Turkish soldiers would have returned to their barracks in Turkey and we would be left with about 60 thousands settlers at worse, rather than the 300 000 we have today.

In a similar way, Halil also listed some of the 'benefits' to the GC's if the AP was accepted. I don't personally know Halil and he certainly doesn't need me to stick up for him, but from his posts it is clear that English is not his mother language (and why should it be). He does bloody well in my view in translating his 'Turkish thoughts' into 'English writing' (if I try and do the same in reverse I am found wanting so when I cannot find the correct word/translation I make do with what I think is right !)

So I think you are doing Halil a big injustice here. In his response he is trying to convey that the AP was an opportunity for the TC's to put the dark days of 63-74 behind, it was an opportunity for the TC's to have some say and control over their community, it was an opportunity to have safeguards put in place.

He said that problems exist and it isn't ideal at the moment but he would far prefer the conditions of today to yesteryear. As he says, is there a perfect place in this world ? (apart from the Roc maybe )

You really should take the opportunity to visit the TRNC and stay there for a period and see for yourself whether there is a desire for unification or a desire to find a lasting solution. See for yourself before making your mind up. At the moment everything and anything that the TC's do or attempt to do are wrong in your view. I have yet to see anything 'pro-TC' from you and that is disappointing to say the least.

Oh, and to finish it all off with an attack on Halil's friendship with GC's is the lowest of the low.
Quite despicable in my view.

[halil]

Kikapucuğum,
I am very happy mate with my life . Uzaktan gazel okumak çok güzeldir.
You must like the word PARTİONİST . Keep on doing it . It helps at all .
For me and for my children Annan plan was perfect . I don't think so next plans will be worse than this . It can!t be go back from present stage .
If leaders were honest they should sit and study on the plan but they didn't do it . I studied the plan Kikapucuğum , It was better than my enclave life time . You never had it those days . You were left the island or force to go away . We all knowing 1963 -1974 jail days . How our life was in danger . If your grand pa or grand mums are still in life asked them. I am not telling you that we are happy to getting any body's property or belongings , we are happy for gaining our freedom mate . U don't understand it . Life was different for u .living in Switzerland or rest of the other countries.
Now again 21!st December is coming KİKAPUCUĞUM , I am waiting your comments on bloody Noel night. You wouldn't say any think . It was our fault . Wasn't it ? It was bloodt TMT . Is it ?
KİKAPUCUĞUM , we wanted open new page to our lifes with AP .We wanted start with new system again GUZUM . We will strugle for it A EFENDİ . We would like to be our own EFENDİ . KİKAPUCUĞUM .
you scaring from your own shadow . You talking with others mouth . to talk about us , you should live in NORTH. You should experience everything with us than I can understand You . We all know everything is not perfect . Show me in the earth there is a one place that it is under the isolation from every where . even we are under the isolation by the Turkey as well . We all know it . Still we are struggling to get over it . Annan plan was giving all of it for us . We were going to be our own EFENDİ.

Senin, ailenin ve tüm forumdaki arkadaşların gelecek bayramını bu vesile ile candan kutlarım . İYİ BAYRAMLAR

Halil,

Just when I have almost given up hope of honesty to come through your posts, you hit me with a Bulldozer with your Brutal Honesty, and quiet frankly, I'm lost for words, but I still managed to find some to respond to your post.

For me and for my children Annan plan was perfect

And that's what we are talking about Halil, the Annan Plan was perfect for the TC's. It was perfect for you at others expense. Now do you understand why the GC's said NO to the AP.? Now that you admit to us the AP was perfect for you, it must not have been perfect for the other party, or even anywhere as good, and perhaps even less than good, so that yours would be perfect. I really don't know if I should say anything else on this, but let me try all the same.

Kikapucuğum,
Ap plan wasn't good only for TC's it was also good for GC's .Take notices that Bananiot was saying from the GC's perspective side. When they do plans there must be no winners .They said no because they don't want to be equl power with us . don't belive it is the land . Power and power .

You see Halil, the perfect AP that you got was not just the "luck of the draw" was it.?? You did not just draw a number from a hat and just happened to be luck, was it.?? No it was not Halil. The AP was designed that way, so that you got the best possible deal at the expense of others. Do you think that was fair or did you also think that those who were going to lose out so that yours would be perfect, were going to say YES to Annan Plan, so that you can take as much as possible at their expense. Would you have said to such a plan, where you would give yours so that others would be perfect for them at your expense....I really do not think so.

If leaders were honest they should sit and study on the plan but they didn't do it . I studied the plan Kikapucuğum

It was their duty to study . If they don't do it someone else does for them .than referandum comes......
I was sensible man and İstudied . İmportant parts are in 153 pages . It is easy to read try to spend some times .It is in UN's web page. If ı was you i wouldn't talk with Nikitas mouth . I would spend my time and talk about .
I don't believe anyone studied the plans Halil. If you read the 153 pages of the main points of the plan plus the 9,000 pages sub-texts according to Nikitas, all in ONE WEEK from the time it was presented and Referendum took place, than you are better person then everyone else. But the main point does not chance a thing Halil, because at the end, the plan was in the favour of the TC's, and you already admitted to that. Just what exactly were the TC's going to lose by voting on the AP........anything at all.??? Just to sweeten the deal for the TC's, all those who did not bother to read all 9,153 pages of the AP, a promise was made to lift the isolation by the EU and possibly the UN if the TC's said YES to the AP. Can the TC's have gotten it a better deal than that you may asks yourselves. ?? Well, the answer was yes...yes if the GC's had said yes to the AP, which would have made your perfect Annan Plan a reality at the expense of others....Now do see why the GC's said NO to the AP.

Even I studied new consitution . we also said yes to new consitition .Did you know it .

I studied the plan Kikapucuğum , It was better than my enclave life time . You never had it those days . You were left the island or force to go away . We all knowing 1963 -1974 jail days . How our life was in danger

You are right Halil, I left Cyprus in 1964, but others stayed behind, like my mother and 6 siblings, last ones leaving in 1968, and non of them hold any hatred towards the GC's. Yes, those were the bad days for us, so what is it that you want to say, that it was a fair exchange for those days with a Annan Plan that gave you everything that you wanted. If so, what sort of a claim should the GC's make for the 1974 Invasion and destruction caused by Turkey, just because group of criminals from Greece and Cyprus wanted to overthrow the government to form Enosis with Greece. Why didn't Turkey just come and restore order and leave. In fact, why didn't Turkey come and restore order back in 1963 through 1974. Why did she wait so long, so that you were suffering in the enclaves? Are you not mad at Turkey and Britain for failing in their Guarantor Duties to protect the Republic of Cyprus from all enemies, Foreign and Domestic? You do have a complaint Halil from your times in the enclaves, but it is not with me...sorry.

I have to complain my life during the enclave times .If you were happy its your business . We weren't happy at all . BEKLEDİMDA GELMEDİN . how they were playing with us . İ am not hating anybody . Bunlar gerçeklerdir .

I am not telling you that we are happy to getting any body's property or belongings, we are happy for gaining our freedom mate . U don't understand it . Life was different for u .living in Switzerland or rest of the other countries

The point is, you are holding other peoples property Halil, whether you like it or not. Every person should be free to live his or her lives normal. The reason why we never had a normal life in Cyprus is because of the way the 1960 Constitution was written. It was doomed to fail, just as the 2004 Annan Plan, was doomed to fail. Funny enough, they were both written by the same "Enemies of Cyprus". Today, the world is a different place than the past, but it appears you want to hold today’s generation guilty of the crimes committed by those in the past. You want to punish those today, for the mistakes of the past. Who should also pay for our crimes and mistakes Halil? You cannot just point the finger to other without taking some of the blame also...but it appears, that you can just do that.
Kikapucuğum , I am not holding anybodies property , they are all my family own deeds .
we didn't make 1960 constitution to fail . It wasn't doom . If someones are AÇGÖZLÜ that time doomed .
I don't want to punish anybody .You doing same things at most of the your post .we paid enough and still we are paying .

Now again 21!st December is coming KİKAPUCUĞUM , I am waiting your comments on bloody Noel night. You wouldn't say any think . It was our fault . Wasn't it ? It was bloodt TMT . Is it ?

My newly weds cousin's husband was taken away by the GC's that night Halil, and was never seen again. She gave birth to their child without a father in 1964. We were taken as prisoners at gunpoint in Kucuk Kaymakli and detained along with 700 TC's at a school building for a week, so yes Halil, I will remember that night. If you have been reading Birkibrisli's Diary, and you should, you will also find out what the TMT was up to in those days. So you see Halil, nor my family or me was spared from hardship. Yes it is true, that some had it worse than others and some got killed, but you are in no position to tell others that your hardship was worse than someone else’s...I will not allow you to do that Halil. You were no special case than anyone else, so do not try to preach to me that you should be given special consideration over my family, anyone else’s misfortunes or me for that matter. We were all victims of the short-sighted in the past, as there are victims today, due to short- sighted of those today in position of power.

I am not interesting now what TMT or EOKA was doing Kikapu .What i am intersting is my equality .
when i was trying to give you examples about what your olders are thinking was ,what people are thinking at north thats why they are backing up AP.

Uzaktan gazel okumak çok güzeldir.....(preaching from afar is very nice)..Sarcasm intended by Halil.

When you can accuse others the same who support you and the "TRNC" from afar, then I will take you accusation of me of doing the opposite more seriously, but until then, you do not have the credibility to accuse one and not the others.... it’s only fair.

Annan plan was giving all of it for us. We were going to be our own EFENDİ.....(Boss)

Once again Halil, thank you for your Brutal Honesty for a chance. The AP was giving everything to you, the TC's and the "TRNC" so that you will be your own boss, and hell with everyone else. No more Cyprus, just a zoo for a country where hatred and fighting would have continued until the next 1963 and 1974 would have repeated itself. That's what your "Perfect Annan Plan" would have given us. But of course, with the Turkish Military Power behind you, perhaps that's exactly what you were hoping for. Sorry Halil, Bayram does not come every day to have your wishes to come true. Three times a year is enough as it is. If you really want to have a decent Cyprus so that we can all live peacefully, you need to ask for a deal that is fair for all of us, and if you don’t believe in that, than I don't know why you invite GC's to have dinners and drinks with you, and even more puzzling to me, that they would want to with you. To each to their own, I guess.
ofcourse i want decent Cyprus but not control of the GC's . With equal partner .............. that's why i want my own EFENDİ
[color=blue]we are all puzzling to each other doesn't mean we must not share any thing between us . We are talking we are open minded . We don't hate eachother we talk anything .we have respect eachother .[/color].

[halil]

Kikapu,

In an early part of this particular thread, Bananiot mentioned the following 'items' which would have been in place by now had the AP been accepted.......

The restricted part of Varosha would have been returned along with Morphou and Kokkina as well as some occupied areas that belong to Athienou, Mammari, Pila and Troulloi. Also the villages of Ayios Nikolaos, Petrofani, Selemani, Varisia, Achna, Petra, Ayios Georgios of Lefka, Galini, Loutro, Piroi, Timpou, Acheritou, Ammadia, Avlona, Kalopsida, Kontea, Limnitis, Lisi, Makrasika, Kserovouno, Gerolakkos, Kato Zodia, Pano Zodia, Mia Milia, Ayia Marina, Ayios Ermolaos, Ayios Vasilios, Agridaki, Argaki, Assia, Asomatos, Vatili, Filia, Gaidouras (Nea Sparti), Kalo Chorio, Karavostasi, Karpasia, Katokopia, Kontemenos, Kormakitis, Kira, Larnaka of Lapithos, Mirtou, Nikita, Pentayia, Potamos Kampou, Prasteio of Morphou, Prasteio of Famagusta, Pirga, Sisklipos and Skilloura.

The people of Karpasia would return in an autonomous region and 1/4 of the Akrotiri base and 3/4 of the Dekelia base would have been returned to the Greek Cypriot component state. Today, that is, 3.5 years after the referenda, 34 thousands Turkish soldiers would have returned to their barracks in Turkey and we would be left with about 60 thousands settlers at worse, rather than the 300 000 we have today.

In a similar way, Halil also listed some of the 'benefits' to the GC's if the AP was accepted. I don't personally know Halil and he certainly doesn't need me to stick up for him, but from his posts it is clear that English is not his mother language (and why should it be). He does bloody well in my view in translating his 'Turkish thoughts' into 'English writing' (if I try and do the same in reverse I am found wanting so when I cannot find the correct word/translation I make do with what I think is right !)

So I think you are doing Halil a big injustice here. In his response he is trying to convey that the AP was an opportunity for the TC's to put the dark days of 63-74 behind, it was an opportunity for the TC's to have some say and control over their community, it was an opportunity to have safeguards put in place.

He said that problems exist and it isn't ideal at the moment but he would far prefer the conditions of today to yesteryear. As he says, is there a perfect place in this world ? (apart from the Roc maybe )

You really should take the opportunity to visit the TRNC and stay there for a period and see for yourself whether there is a desire for unification or a desire to find a lasting solution. See for yourself before making your mind up. At the moment everything and anything that the TC's do or attempt to do are wrong in your view. I have yet to see anything 'pro-TC' from you and that is disappointing to say the least.

Oh, and to finish it all off with an attack on Halil's friendship with GC's is the lowest of the low.
Quite despicable in my view.

Thanks for you understanding me . My Greek Cypriot friends are understands me .Not all of them . I have quite well numbers now and I am very hapy with them .We will die for eachother. Let the Kikapucuğum not understand me . He does but he is , in a such away he can't get out of it .

[Nikitas]

Kikapu said above:

"The reason why we never had a normal life in Cyprus is because of the way the 1960 Constitution was written. It was doomed to fail, just as the 2004 Annan Plan, was doomed to fail. Funny enough, they were both written by the same "Enemies of Cyprus". "

Until we wake up to this fact and take our future in our own hands that is the way it is going to play over and over. About half of the original 1960 agreement dealt with the British bases. A major chunk of the Annan plan did the same. Division and stalemate were built into the Annan plan as they were in the 1960 constitution.

Despite all these experiences of foreign intervention we still insist on looking to others to mediate, offer their good offices, broker deals and we still practice secret diplomacy.

There is emphasis in this forum and this thread on the territorial benefit the Annan plan gave to the GCs. This is a joke, it was not a benefit, it was a final condemnation of property loss for the people of Kyrenia and Karpasia. But even that was not the worst.

The worst was that the Annan plan would be a permanent blockage in the dealings of Cyprus within the EU, and maybe that was the purpose. Take the case of the one currency and one central bank for Cyprus, working under the control of the cabinet. How would that work within the context of the Euro? The decisions for the Euro are taken jointly by all bank governors of the Euro zone. It could not work, and by not working it would effectively make Cyprus anything but an independent European nation. A second rate banana republic would be our fate. And that suits those who drafted the plan very well.

Read the provisions of the plan about the workings of the central bank of Cyprus and see for yourselves. The governor was obliged to ask the cabinet to endorse his every move, this at a time when banks deal via computer and buy and sell hundreds of millions of dollars worth of foreign exchange every day. The cabinet had to have a majority which had to include at least one vote from each of the two communities. That is a recipe for paralysis not for running the finances of a country. There is no parallel of this crap anywhere in the world, but they (our friends) wanted if for us. Let them try it on themselves first to see if it works for them and then we will have a go at it too!

Kikapu is looking at the settlement from a wider point of view and on how any settlement would work so as to avoid the problems of the past, those problems that some people keep bringing up time and again. Well, to avoid the problems the solution must make Cyprus a modern fucntioning European country. Anything less makes the present preferable to a stalemate and a mess.

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu said above:

"The reason why we never had a normal life in Cyprus is because of the way the 1960 Constitution was written. It was doomed to fail, just as the 2004 Annan Plan, was doomed to fail. Funny enough, they were both written by the same "Enemies of Cyprus". "

Until we wake up to this fact and take our future in our own hands that is the way it is going to play over and over. About half of the original 1960 agreement dealt with the British bases. A major chunk of the Annan plan did the same. Division and stalemate were built into the Annan plan as they were in the 1960 constitution.

Despite all these experiences of foreign intervention we still insist on looking to others to mediate, offer their good offices, broker deals and we still practice secret diplomacy.

There is emphasis in this forum and this thread on the territorial benefit the Annan plan gave to the GCs. This is a joke, it was not a benefit, it was a final condemnation of property loss for the people of Kyrenia and Karpasia. But even that was not the worst.

The worst was that the Annan plan would be a permanent blockage in the dealings of Cyprus within the EU, and maybe that was the purpose. Take the case of the one currency and one central bank for Cyprus, working under the control of the cabinet. How would that work within the context of the Euro? The decisions for the Euro are taken jointly by all bank governors of the Euro zone. It could not work, and by not working it would effectively make Cyprus anything but an independent European nation. A second rate banana republic would be our fate. And that suits those who drafted the plan very well.

Read the provisions of the plan about the workings of the central bank of Cyprus and see for yourselves. The governor was obliged to ask the cabinet to endorse his every move, this at a time when banks deal via computer and buy and sell hundreds of millions of dollars worth of foreign exchange every day. The cabinet had to have a majority which had to include at least one vote from each of the two communities. That is a recipe for paralysis not for running the finances of a country. There is no parallel of this crap anywhere in the world, but they (our friends) wanted if for us. Let them try it on themselves first to see if it works for them and then we will have a go at it too!

Kikapu is looking at the settlement from a wider point of view and on how any settlement would work so as to avoid the problems of the past, those problems that some people keep bringing up time and again. Well, to avoid the problems the solution must make Cyprus a modern fucntioning European country. Anything less makes the present preferable to a stalemate and a mess.

Your analysis of the Central Bank is total crap, go read those articles again, the central bank would have been autonomous with a governing board plus montary committee containing GCs and TCs plus 1 foreigner.

[halil]

Article 31 Central Bank of Cyprus
1. The Central Bank of Cyprus shall be independent and operate in accordance with European Union requirements.
2. It shall issue currency, determine monetary policy and the prime lending rate, and regulate and supervise the banking sector.
3. The Central Bank shall be governed by a Board of three members, one of whom shall be the Governor. At least one member shall hail from each <component state>; the third member may be a non-Cypriot.
4. The Governor and the other two members of Board shall be appointed by the Presidential Council for a term of seven years.
5. The law may provide for the establishment of branches of the Central Bank in each <component state>, and for inclusion of branch directors in the Board of the Central Bank.
6. All decisions of the Board of the Central Bank shall be taken by simple majority.