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For Bananiot- Annan's maps

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Kikapu » Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:56 pm

Nikitas wrote:Kikapu,

You mention 2000 pages, the figure I have is more like 9000 pages. A great chunk of that was devoted to the status of the British bases. Another chunk to the armaments the two armies, Greek and Turkish were supposed to keep.

One mystery that will probably never be solved- did Koffi Annan read all 9000 pages of the plan? Did De Soto? Did anyone of the primary personalities involved? Is there any ONE person in the world to have read the whole thing cover to cover? Probably not, but the ballot in the referendum included wording that the voter had read the plan and understood it!

Like you said, typical insurance salesmanship!


Nikitas,

A thousand page here and a thousand page there, pretty soon you're talking serious mess. :lol:

This is what happens in big court trials. Since each side can request information from the other, and that information has to be given, what generally happens, it is mixed in with thousands of pages of useless information, so that it gets lost in the pile. You are not obliged to tell the other person where each requested information is, that is on them to find it. As far as they are concerned, they have complied with the courts ruling to turn over all relevant documents. What Halil is doing, is ignoring the pile of shit that was hidden from everyone. As far as he is concerned, everything was just Rosy. In other words, "TRUST ME" was the message from Kofi and the Gang.
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Postby halil » Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:36 pm

Kikapu wrote:
halil wrote:What if the Greek Cypriots had voted in favor of the Annan plan in the 2004 referendum?
1. The bi-zonal, bi-communal “United Cyprus Republic” would have been officially declared and internationally recognized.

2. In June 13, 2004, the members of the federal parliament, senators representing the people and the members of the European Parliament from both founding states would have been elected.

3. The federal parliament would be formed.

4. Four Greek Cypriots and two Turkish Cypriots with full voting rights, together with two Greek Cypriots and one Turkish Cypriot without voting rights, would form the federal presidential council.

5. The president of the “United Cyprus Republic” would be the Greek Cypriot member of the presidential cabinet until June 2, 2008, the last day of the fifth alternation period, comprising 300 days each. Alternatively, in each odd-numbered period, a Greek Cypriot member of the presidential cabinet would become president and a Turkish Cypriot would take the post in each even-numbered period.

6. The disposition of immovable property would have already been started, and the Turkish Cypriot founding state would have handed over at least 25 villages to the Greek Cypriot founding state in the areas agreed and defined in the Annan plan.

7. Some 25,000 Greek Cypriots would have vacated their pre-1974-owned condominiums and the progressive return of a further 60,000 Greek Cypriots choosing to live in the territories of the Turkish Cypriot founding state would be completed. A total of 85,000 Greek Cypriots would now be residing in the north.

8. Turkish visitors from Turkey would need an EU entry visa to visit Cyprus.

9. Some 36,500 Turkish troops would already have left the island according to the “Progressive Return Plan” as defined in the plan, and the remaining troops would need permission to leave from the UN.

10. The Greek Cypriot pre-1974 land owners would have regained possession of one-third of their lands before the end of 2008.

11. The Greek Cypriot pre-1974 land owners would start receiving monetary compensation for the remaining two-thirds of their lands at the beginning of 2009.

12. An “autonomous Greek Cypriot region” consisting of four villages on the Karpaz Peninsula would already be established and all the pre-1974 residents of these villages and their descendants would be living there under their own rule.

13. Demilitarization of both founding states would be completed and the local armed forces of both states, the Greek National Guards and Turkish Armed Forces (TSK), would be demobilized.

14. Some 12,000 Turkish Cypriot civil servants would lose their jobs due to the adaptation of EU rules and regulations.

15. Greek Cypriot bureaucrats would be occupying all the higher offices in the government structure of the United Cyprus Republic, until the necessary training of the Turkish Cypriots was fully completed, taking a minimum of four years.

16. The most important offices in civil aviation, airports, the central bank, land registry, telecommunications, customs, immigration, coast guard and maritime would be administered by the federal government, in which almost 90 percent of the high level bureaucrats would be Greek Cypriots.

These are only some of the benefits the Greek Cypriots would have received if they had voted “Yes” on the referendum. Unfortunately the 1796 “Megalo Idea” of the Hellenic world caused Papadopoulos to dream of establishing a “Unitary Greek State” in Cyprus since 1960 and accordingly led him to reject all proposals paving the way to a sustainable peace in Cyprus.

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/yazar ... rno=128986


Halil,

Please DO take this the wrong way. You are printing bunch of useless information about the AP, that no body wants to know, because it has been D-E-A-D long time ago. All you doing is showing us what the GC's refused and what the TC's agreed to, but all your posts are just the main points in the 153 page plan, but not all the remaining 2,000 pages of fine print details that may or may not make your main points workable or not, and unless you are also willing to tell us about all the small prints, you are just Propagandising here. You are doing nothing more than saying, look we the TC's said YES to all this and you the GC's said NO to all this. Sure everything looks great on the surface, but what about what lay beneath the surface, and around the corner, and next week and next year. You are acting like a "dishonest Insurance salesman" who puts all the great reasons why your customer should buy your insurance policy, but you are not showing them all the small prints as to how it would effect their Insurance Policy when the time comes to collect on their claims. You will say to your clients, "yes, that is true what I told you, but it was your responsibility to read the fine prints, so don't blame me that you can't collect on your claim". So Halil, the point is, stop with your silly Propaganda postings of all the "juicy fruits of the Annan Plan" and show us where all the
"sour grapes" were hidden.


KİKAPUCUĞUM,
Yavrucuğum bir gün gelecek , o günleride göreceksin , ağlama o zaman bebeğim çok geç olacak. kim propagandacı ,kim maşa o zaman göreceğiz.
ağlama gızım ağlama üç gün galdı bayramcığa.


you can translate it for your loved ones ...................
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Postby Kikapu » Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:14 pm

halil wrote:
Kikapu wrote:
halil wrote:What if the Greek Cypriots had voted in favor of the Annan plan in the 2004 referendum?
1. The bi-zonal, bi-communal “United Cyprus Republic” would have been officially declared and internationally recognized.

2. In June 13, 2004, the members of the federal parliament, senators representing the people and the members of the European Parliament from both founding states would have been elected.

3. The federal parliament would be formed.

4. Four Greek Cypriots and two Turkish Cypriots with full voting rights, together with two Greek Cypriots and one Turkish Cypriot without voting rights, would form the federal presidential council.

5. The president of the “United Cyprus Republic” would be the Greek Cypriot member of the presidential cabinet until June 2, 2008, the last day of the fifth alternation period, comprising 300 days each. Alternatively, in each odd-numbered period, a Greek Cypriot member of the presidential cabinet would become president and a Turkish Cypriot would take the post in each even-numbered period.

6. The disposition of immovable property would have already been started, and the Turkish Cypriot founding state would have handed over at least 25 villages to the Greek Cypriot founding state in the areas agreed and defined in the Annan plan.

7. Some 25,000 Greek Cypriots would have vacated their pre-1974-owned condominiums and the progressive return of a further 60,000 Greek Cypriots choosing to live in the territories of the Turkish Cypriot founding state would be completed. A total of 85,000 Greek Cypriots would now be residing in the north.

8. Turkish visitors from Turkey would need an EU entry visa to visit Cyprus.

9. Some 36,500 Turkish troops would already have left the island according to the “Progressive Return Plan” as defined in the plan, and the remaining troops would need permission to leave from the UN.

10. The Greek Cypriot pre-1974 land owners would have regained possession of one-third of their lands before the end of 2008.

11. The Greek Cypriot pre-1974 land owners would start receiving monetary compensation for the remaining two-thirds of their lands at the beginning of 2009.

12. An “autonomous Greek Cypriot region” consisting of four villages on the Karpaz Peninsula would already be established and all the pre-1974 residents of these villages and their descendants would be living there under their own rule.

13. Demilitarization of both founding states would be completed and the local armed forces of both states, the Greek National Guards and Turkish Armed Forces (TSK), would be demobilized.

14. Some 12,000 Turkish Cypriot civil servants would lose their jobs due to the adaptation of EU rules and regulations.

15. Greek Cypriot bureaucrats would be occupying all the higher offices in the government structure of the United Cyprus Republic, until the necessary training of the Turkish Cypriots was fully completed, taking a minimum of four years.

16. The most important offices in civil aviation, airports, the central bank, land registry, telecommunications, customs, immigration, coast guard and maritime would be administered by the federal government, in which almost 90 percent of the high level bureaucrats would be Greek Cypriots.

These are only some of the benefits the Greek Cypriots would have received if they had voted “Yes” on the referendum. Unfortunately the 1796 “Megalo Idea” of the Hellenic world caused Papadopoulos to dream of establishing a “Unitary Greek State” in Cyprus since 1960 and accordingly led him to reject all proposals paving the way to a sustainable peace in Cyprus.

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/yazar ... rno=128986


Halil,

Please DO take this the wrong way. You are printing bunch of useless information about the AP, that no body wants to know, because it has been D-E-A-D long time ago. All you doing is showing us what the GC's refused and what the TC's agreed to, but all your posts are just the main points in the 153 page plan, but not all the remaining 2,000 pages of fine print details that may or may not make your main points workable or not, and unless you are also willing to tell us about all the small prints, you are just Propagandising here. You are doing nothing more than saying, look we the TC's said YES to all this and you the GC's said NO to all this. Sure everything looks great on the surface, but what about what lay beneath the surface, and around the corner, and next week and next year. You are acting like a "dishonest Insurance salesman" who puts all the great reasons why your customer should buy your insurance policy, but you are not showing them all the small prints as to how it would effect their Insurance Policy when the time comes to collect on their claims. You will say to your clients, "yes, that is true what I told you, but it was your responsibility to read the fine prints, so don't blame me that you can't collect on your claim". So Halil, the point is, stop with your silly Propaganda postings of all the "juicy fruits of the Annan Plan" and show us where all the
"sour grapes" were hidden.


KİKAPUCUĞUM,
Yavrucuğum bir gün gelecek , o günleride göreceksin , ağlama o zaman bebeğim çok geç olacak. kim propagandacı ,kim maşa o zaman göreceğiz.
ağlama gızım ağlama üç gün galdı bayramcığa.


you can translate it for your loved ones ...................


Halil,

Thanks for the touching words. It got me right in the Heart. :wink: :wink:

Halil my friend, you are the one who is crying over spilt milk. Stop trying to lick it off the floor. It's not worth is now (AP) and it was not worth it then. You know it was crap and had no future in it, but that suited the Partitonist just well, so let it go çanim, gözlerinden öpeyim, just let it go. :idea: :idea:

Bayramin çok kutlu olsun, senin ve aylenin, Halil.
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Postby phoenix » Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:07 pm

Bananiot wrote:Phoenix is honestly giving her opinion. I have no doubt about it. But then again, aren't we all?

Let me talk a bit about Phoenix. I think she is greatly influenced by her long presence in the UK, that is totally understandable. This is quite obvious in most of her suggestions. However, she has been away from Cyprus for a long time and possibly she cannot comprehend the realities on the ground in Cyprus that were shaped by the recent history. The realities are different for every country and these must be considered when looking for solutions to even trivial issues.

Phoenix is apolitical, this is the impression I got from my brief encounter with her through the screen of the computer. There is nothing wrong with that but so were our leaders in the 60's and look at the mess they have left us in. Phoenix is just an ordinary person just like all of us. Our leaders though thought they could shape the present and future of Cyprus without taking into consideration the realities. Thus the maximalistic policies they pursued were to lead us straight into the quagmire. Anyone who dared to tell them then that they were leading the country to catastrophe, was quickly and summarily branded a traitor and soon he was hushed (because it hurts to be a "traitor"). That is why I am so weary of these superpatriots and every time they launch into the patriotic rhetoric I hear a voice whisper in my ears "patriotism is the last refuse of all scoundrels".

Yet, having said the above, I realise that I might be all wrong. In fact, many of our judgements may be totally wrong simply because we do not really know each other.


Thank you for the unauthorized biography . . . or should I say character assassination. :roll:

This is not the first time a forumer has resorted to dissecting my personality upon losing the debate. :wink:

Bananiot, I answered all queries and assertions put to me . . . and you where neither happy with dictionary definitions nor reports from learned newspapers, because they proved you wrong.

The only point I would endorse is that I am apolitical.

I have never made it secret that I am not a political animal. I am here to learn both in preparation for arriving in Cyprus, and for personal gratification.

That's why I never resort to victimising anyone, but play devils advocate and ask lots of questions. In the past I've even thanked you for indulging me.

I am sorry you reached exasperation point now and had to resort so low.

My only worry is that too many people assume they ARE political when they clearly are not. Yet I humour them, because who knows what may come of it.

. . . and the rest are your opinions with which you can do as you like, I respect your right to accumulate and disseminate them. :D

P.S. Maybe we can settle the score on the Badminton Court :)
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Postby Bananiot » Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:02 am

Hold your horses Phoenix. It wasn't as bad as you made it sound.
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Postby phoenix » Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:05 am

Bananiot wrote:Hold your horses Phoenix. It wasn't as bad as you made it sound.


Aha! . . . afraid of my killer-smash! :D
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Postby Bananiot » Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:11 am

More likely your subtle drop ...
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Postby phoenix » Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:33 am

For Bananiot . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouUXmLkM ... re=related

Have a good Tuesday :D
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Postby zan » Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:09 am

Kikapu wrote:
Nikitas wrote:Kikapu,

You mention 2000 pages, the figure I have is more like 9000 pages. A great chunk of that was devoted to the status of the British bases. Another chunk to the armaments the two armies, Greek and Turkish were supposed to keep.

One mystery that will probably never be solved- did Koffi Annan read all 9000 pages of the plan? Did De Soto? Did anyone of the primary personalities involved? Is there any ONE person in the world to have read the whole thing cover to cover? Probably not, but the ballot in the referendum included wording that the voter had read the plan and understood it!

Like you said, typical insurance salesmanship!


Nikitas,

A thousand page here and a thousand page there, pretty soon you're talking serious mess. :lol:

This is what happens in big court trials. Since each side can request information from the other, and that information has to be given, what generally happens, it is mixed in with thousands of pages of useless information, so that it gets lost in the pile. You are not obliged to tell the other person where each requested information is, that is on them to find it. As far as they are concerned, they have complied with the courts ruling to turn over all relevant documents. What Halil is doing, is ignoring the pile of shit that was hidden from everyone. As far as he is concerned, everything was just Rosy. In other words, "TRUST ME" was the message from Kofi and the Gang.


As usual you are talking out of your propaganda arse Kikapu and Nikitas seems to be hell bent on doing so as well.



The 9,000 pages were bashed out by several hundred Cypriot lawyers and they were just the federal laws and the annexes to the original Annan Plan which was 193 pages. 6,181 people were working on this whole plan to make sure that every 'T" was crossed and you guys make out that you knew better :roll:

You have a go at people that knew what it was all about but admit that not one person has read it all the way through. All I have now is an image of you two posing in that famous way of two snakes eating their own tail.

The fact of the matter is that Tpap was present when the final FIFTH amendment of the Annan Plan was drafted and to claim like Kifeas did, that he did not have enough time to negotiate the plan in an effective way is just lying for the sake of it.


It has been shown that every single refugee would have bee satisfied with the result and you guys are still arguing about the overall effect and the positive results it would have achieved for the GCs is scandalous.

We want political equality and we will have it so you had better get used to it. The Anna Plan will resurface and you will have to make up your minds once and for all. It may be under another name but all that work will not go to waste.
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Postby denizaksulu » Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:13 am

DT. wrote:
denizaksulu wrote:
phoenix wrote:
Nikitas wrote:Phoenix,

Having one official language means that all people are forced to deal in that language, since all official and legally binding documents are so written. In short it forces the "other" side to deal in that language in their day to day business.

The approach in Cyprus was to have three official languages, Greek, Turkish and English. Having adopted English Common law as our legal system meant that court proceedings were mostly in English. It is no accident then that the legal profession in Cyprus was the most uniform and integrated.

But part of the effort in finding a new settlement is the sidestepping of English, the language of the former colonialists and give equal status to the two main languages of the island. Considering that both sides speak a dialect of each of their mothertongues this is a formality more than a substantial concession by either side. In reality GCs will go on speaking Cypriot Greek and TCs will go on speaking Cypriot Turkish and I find nothing wrong with that.


Once again Nikitas, people are free to speak whatever language and dialect they prefer. That's NOT an issue. :roll:

In setting the groundwork for self-determination I suggest we abandon outdated, unworkable resolutions and have only ONE OFFICIAL language.

For the already stated reasons, it has to be Greek.



There you go again Phoenix mou. You are losing the argument on the language issue and integration and now its the old chestnut of 'self-determination'.
You know what will happen now? The TCs/TS will vote for one and the GCs will vote for the other. There is your 'self-determination. One and the other = language/partition/segregation, you name it. If I were you (thank god I am not :lol: ) I would have waited for a settlement and then go for 'self determination'. :lol:


Unfortunately for Pheonix she is too honest for her own good. Why chastise someone for not being decpetive Deniz?



Sorry DT, I couldnt identify the word above.
Please allow me to gloat a bit, (justified or not). She is not an easy target to hit. I feel she is backtracking a tad, and its a good time to 'attack' in the nicest possible way. She loves it really.
I think the word is deceptive. Got it now. Do you mean I should be grateful that she is not 'deceptive'? I dont know about that. Would you understand how much pain she inflicts on this poor soul? :lol:
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