Cyprus-Forum.com

[Nikitas]

Phoenix,

Having one official language means that all people are forced to deal in that language, since all official and legally binding documents are so written. In short it forces the "other" side to deal in that language in their day to day business.

The approach in Cyprus was to have three official languages, Greek, Turkish and English. Having adopted English Common law as our legal system meant that court proceedings were mostly in English. It is no accident then that the legal profession in Cyprus was the most uniform and integrated.

But part of the effort in finding a new settlement is the sidestepping of English, the language of the former colonialists and give equal status to the two main languages of the island. Considering that both sides speak a dialect of each of their mothertongues this is a formality more than a substantial concession by either side. In reality GCs will go on speaking Cypriot Greek and TCs will go on speaking Cypriot Turkish and I find nothing wrong with that.

[phoenix]

Viewpoint,

You are taking the views of one person and attach them to a whole community. Phoenix is entitled to her point of view, but it is more than doubtful if all Cypriots on this forum, let alone in the whole of Cyprus, would agree with her.

I truly believe she speaks up for the majority of GCs who do not air their true views, why do you not challenge her if you disagree, you keeping silent only backs up her arguments.

Listen Machiavelli . . . . you are subtle as a Turkish invasion!

[phoenix]

Phoenix,

Having one official language means that all people are forced to deal in that language, since all official and legally binding documents are so written. In short it forces the "other" side to deal in that language in their day to day business.

The approach in Cyprus was to have three official languages, Greek, Turkish and English. Having adopted English Common law as our legal system meant that court proceedings were mostly in English. It is no accident then that the legal profession in Cyprus was the most uniform and integrated.

But part of the effort in finding a new settlement is the sidestepping of English, the language of the former colonialists and give equal status to the two main languages of the island. Considering that both sides speak a dialect of each of their mothertongues this is a formality more than a substantial concession by either side. In reality GCs will go on speaking Cypriot Greek and TCs will go on speaking Cypriot Turkish and I find nothing wrong with that.

Once again Nikitas, people are free to speak whatever language and dialect they prefer. That's NOT an issue.

In setting the groundwork for self-determination I suggest we abandon outdated, unworkable resolutions and have only ONE OFFICIAL language.

For the already stated reasons, it has to be Greek.

[denizaksulu]

Phoenix,

Having one official language means that all people are forced to deal in that language, since all official and legally binding documents are so written. In short it forces the "other" side to deal in that language in their day to day business.

The approach in Cyprus was to have three official languages, Greek, Turkish and English. Having adopted English Common law as our legal system meant that court proceedings were mostly in English. It is no accident then that the legal profession in Cyprus was the most uniform and integrated.

But part of the effort in finding a new settlement is the sidestepping of English, the language of the former colonialists and give equal status to the two main languages of the island. Considering that both sides speak a dialect of each of their mothertongues this is a formality more than a substantial concession by either side. In reality GCs will go on speaking Cypriot Greek and TCs will go on speaking Cypriot Turkish and I find nothing wrong with that.

Once again Nikitas, people are free to speak whatever language and dialect they prefer. That's NOT an issue.

In setting the groundwork for self-determination I suggest we abandon outdated, unworkable resolutions and have only ONE OFFICIAL language.

For the already stated reasons, it has to be Greek.

There you go again Phoenix mou. You are losing the argument on the language issue and integration and now its the old chestnut of 'self-determination'.
You know what will happen now? The TCs/TS will vote for one and the GCs will vote for the other. There is your 'self-determination. One and the other = language/partition/segregation, you name it. If I were you (thank god I am not ) I would have waited for a settlement and then go for 'self determination'.

[DT.]

Phoenix,

Having one official language means that all people are forced to deal in that language, since all official and legally binding documents are so written. In short it forces the "other" side to deal in that language in their day to day business.

The approach in Cyprus was to have three official languages, Greek, Turkish and English. Having adopted English Common law as our legal system meant that court proceedings were mostly in English. It is no accident then that the legal profession in Cyprus was the most uniform and integrated.

But part of the effort in finding a new settlement is the sidestepping of English, the language of the former colonialists and give equal status to the two main languages of the island. Considering that both sides speak a dialect of each of their mothertongues this is a formality more than a substantial concession by either side. In reality GCs will go on speaking Cypriot Greek and TCs will go on speaking Cypriot Turkish and I find nothing wrong with that.

Once again Nikitas, people are free to speak whatever language and dialect they prefer. That's NOT an issue.

In setting the groundwork for self-determination I suggest we abandon outdated, unworkable resolutions and have only ONE OFFICIAL language.

For the already stated reasons, it has to be Greek.

There you go again Phoenix mou. You are losing the argument on the language issue and integration and now its the old chestnut of 'self-determination'.
You know what will happen now? The TCs/TS will vote for one and the GCs will vote for the other. There is your 'self-determination. One and the other = language/partition/segregation, you name it. If I were you (thank god I am not ) I would have waited for a settlement and then go for 'self determination'.

Unfortunately for Pheonix she is too honest for her own good. Why chastise someone for not being decpetive Deniz?

[Bananiot]

Phoenix is honestly giving her opinion. I have no doubt about it. But then again, aren't we all?

Let me talk a bit about Phoenix. I think she is greatly influenced by her long presence in the UK, that is totally understandable. This is quite obvious in most of her suggestions. However, she has been away from Cyprus for a long time and possibly she cannot comprehend the realities on the ground in Cyprus that were shaped by the recent history. The realities are different for every country and these must be considered when looking for solutions to even trivial issues.

Phoenix is apolitical, this is the impression I got from my brief encounter with her through the screen of the computer. There is nothing wrong with that but so were our leaders in the 60's and look at the mess they have left us in. Phoenix is just an ordinary person just like all of us. Our leaders though thought they could shape the present and future of Cyprus without taking into consideration the realities. Thus the maximalistic policies they pursued were to lead us straight into the quagmire. Anyone who dared to tell them then that they were leading the country to catastrophe, was quickly and summarily branded a traitor and soon he was hushed (because it hurts to be a "traitor"). That is why I am so weary of these superpatriots and every time they launch into the patriotic rhetoric I hear a voice whisper in my ears "patriotism is the last refuse of all scoundrels".

Yet, having said the above, I realise that I might be all wrong. In fact, many of our judgements may be totally wrong simply because we do not really know each other.

[DT.]

Phoenix is honestly giving her opinion. I have no doubt about it. But then again, aren't we all?

Let me talk a bit about Phoenix. I think she is greatly influenced by her long presence in the UK, that is totally understandable. This is quite obvious in most of her suggestions. However, she has been away from Cyprus for a long time and possibly she cannot comprehend the realities on the ground in Cyprus that were shaped by the recent history. The realities are different for every country and these must be considered when looking for solutions to even trivial issues.

Phoenix is apolitical, this is the impression I got from my brief encounter with her through the screen of the computer. There is nothing wrong with that but so were our leaders in the 60's and look at the mess they have left us in. Phoenix is just an ordinary person just like all of us. Our leaders though thought they could shape the present and future of Cyprus without taking into consideration the realities. Thus the maximalistic policies they pursued were to lead us straight into the quagmire. Anyone who dared to tell them then that they were leading the country to catastrophe, was quickly and summarily branded a traitor and soon he was hushed (because it hurts to be a "traitor"). That is why I am so weary of these superpatriots and every time they launch into the patriotic rhetoric I hear a voice whisper in my ears "patriotism is the last refuse of all scoundrels".

Yet, having said the above, I realise that I might be all wrong. In fact, many of our judgements may be totally wrong simply because we do not really know each other.

You mention how weary you are of these superpatriots in the same breath in which you complain of people being branded traitors. Why not ease up on the branding yourself Bananiot?

[Kikapu]

What if the Greek Cypriots had voted in favor of the Annan plan in the 2004 referendum?
1. The bi-zonal, bi-communal “United Cyprus Republic” would have been officially declared and internationally recognized.

2. In June 13, 2004, the members of the federal parliament, senators representing the people and the members of the European Parliament from both founding states would have been elected.

3. The federal parliament would be formed.

4. Four Greek Cypriots and two Turkish Cypriots with full voting rights, together with two Greek Cypriots and one Turkish Cypriot without voting rights, would form the federal presidential council.

5. The president of the “United Cyprus Republic” would be the Greek Cypriot member of the presidential cabinet until June 2, 2008, the last day of the fifth alternation period, comprising 300 days each. Alternatively, in each odd-numbered period, a Greek Cypriot member of the presidential cabinet would become president and a Turkish Cypriot would take the post in each even-numbered period.

6. The disposition of immovable property would have already been started, and the Turkish Cypriot founding state would have handed over at least 25 villages to the Greek Cypriot founding state in the areas agreed and defined in the Annan plan.

7. Some 25,000 Greek Cypriots would have vacated their pre-1974-owned condominiums and the progressive return of a further 60,000 Greek Cypriots choosing to live in the territories of the Turkish Cypriot founding state would be completed. A total of 85,000 Greek Cypriots would now be residing in the north.

8. Turkish visitors from Turkey would need an EU entry visa to visit Cyprus.

9. Some 36,500 Turkish troops would already have left the island according to the “Progressive Return Plan” as defined in the plan, and the remaining troops would need permission to leave from the UN.

10. The Greek Cypriot pre-1974 land owners would have regained possession of one-third of their lands before the end of 2008.

11. The Greek Cypriot pre-1974 land owners would start receiving monetary compensation for the remaining two-thirds of their lands at the beginning of 2009.

12. An “autonomous Greek Cypriot region” consisting of four villages on the Karpaz Peninsula would already be established and all the pre-1974 residents of these villages and their descendants would be living there under their own rule.

13. Demilitarization of both founding states would be completed and the local armed forces of both states, the Greek National Guards and Turkish Armed Forces (TSK), would be demobilized.

14. Some 12,000 Turkish Cypriot civil servants would lose their jobs due to the adaptation of EU rules and regulations.

15. Greek Cypriot bureaucrats would be occupying all the higher offices in the government structure of the United Cyprus Republic, until the necessary training of the Turkish Cypriots was fully completed, taking a minimum of four years.

16. The most important offices in civil aviation, airports, the central bank, land registry, telecommunications, customs, immigration, coast guard and maritime would be administered by the federal government, in which almost 90 percent of the high level bureaucrats would be Greek Cypriots.

These are only some of the benefits the Greek Cypriots would have received if they had voted “Yes” on the referendum. Unfortunately the 1796 “Megalo Idea” of the Hellenic world caused Papadopoulos to dream of establishing a “Unitary Greek State” in Cyprus since 1960 and accordingly led him to reject all proposals paving the way to a sustainable peace in Cyprus.

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/yazar ... rno=128986

Halil,

Please DO take this the wrong way. You are printing bunch of useless information about the AP, that no body wants to know, because it has been D-E-A-D long time ago. All you doing is showing us what the GC's refused and what the TC's agreed to, but all your posts are just the main points in the 153 page plan, but not all the remaining 2,000 pages of fine print details that may or may not make your main points workable or not, and unless you are also willing to tell us about all the small prints, you are just Propagandising here. You are doing nothing more than saying, look we the TC's said YES to all this and you the GC's said NO to all this. Sure everything looks great on the surface, but what about what lay beneath the surface, and around the corner, and next week and next year. You are acting like a "dishonest Insurance salesman" who puts all the great reasons why your customer should buy your insurance policy, but you are not showing them all the small prints as to how it would effect their Insurance Policy when the time comes to collect on their claims. You will say to your clients, "yes, that is true what I told you, but it was your responsibility to read the fine prints, so don't blame me that you can't collect on your claim". So Halil, the point is, stop with your silly Propaganda postings of all the "juicy fruits of the Annan Plan" and show us where all the
"sour grapes" were hidden.

[Nikitas]

Kikapu,

You mention 2000 pages, the figure I have is more like 9000 pages. A great chunk of that was devoted to the status of the British bases. Another chunk to the armaments the two armies, Greek and Turkish were supposed to keep.

One mystery that will probably never be solved- did Koffi Annan read all 9000 pages of the plan? Did De Soto? Did anyone of the primary personalities involved? Is there any ONE person in the world to have read the whole thing cover to cover? Probably not, but the ballot in the referendum included wording that the voter had read the plan and understood it!

Like you said, typical insurance salesmanship!

[Nikitas]

Bananiot said:

"Our leaders though thought they could shape the present and future of Cyprus without taking into consideration the realities."

Precisely because these realities include a period of intercommunal violence, invasion, occupation, mass killings, expulsion of people from their homes, we must push for a settlement that will minimise the likelihood of these things happening in the future.

Primary among these conerns is a territorial settlement that enhances the feelings of security for all communities and at the same time safeguards the territorial integrity of the nation as a whole. Splitting the one component state in two (per Annan plan for the GC side) goes agains the first principle and granting huge territorial waters to the British bases violates the second principle.

We must not forget that a nation is made up of its people and its territory. Cypriot politicians seem not to care about either. And here I am referring to politicians of both sides. A good example for them is the care and meticulousness the British show in looking after their bases both in the 1960 agreement and in the Annan plan.