Cyprus-Forum.com

[cymart]

Waiting for Goddot, just like Kyprianou and Dountas....Suits Turkey just fine!

[observer]

Nikitaswrote

Observer, there is a great difference in advocating something, as was done by the EU and UN, and the type of insipid campaign that the US carried out through its embassies. It is an even bet that many people voted no simply going on the principle that this kind of campaign was a bad omen.

I am convinced, after reading more of the Annan plan than most people, that we narrowly escaped a trap that would have had us at each other's throats not long into it. It had the same conditions for deadlock as the 1960 constitution had. These were functional defiencies, that have nothing to do with the equality of the two communities or the territorial aspect. If you have the time look up the functioning of the central bank as detailed in the plan, you will then see the problems.

On your first paragraph, it may be as you say. From my reading, the role of the US embassy seems to have been greatly exaggerated by GC politicians, but that is only second-hand.

On the second paragraph, I agree that there were very real risks. But weighing up the impossibility of imposing a unitary (GC run) government, and the undesirability of partion, I thought that the A Plan offered the best way forward.

Someone once said that politics was the art of choosing the least worst option. The A Plan, in my opinion, was the least worst option at the time.

[Piratis]

observer, Turkey started the war between Cyprus and Turkey by invading Cyprus and illegally occupying 1/3rd of our island.

Sure we had other events in 1974, but not a war between Cyprus and Turkey. May I also remind you that Turkey had many coups, and it is until today ruled by the army. Maybe that should be a reason for another country to invade and occupy Turkey?

Stop trying to find lame excuses please. The invasion and occupation of Cyprus are inexcusable and illegal, and the war that Turkey started by invading our country can end only with the end of their illegal occupation.

We the TCs invited Turkey here to save our lives from GCs demanding union with Greece and the dire position we were forced into over 11 years, no amount of negotiations were going to sort things out as the GCs had us just where they wanted us in the palm of their hands, isolated and desolate, unable to make ourselves heard to the outside world.

Thats the same excuse that Hitler gave to invade Czechoslovakia, to supposedly protect the German minority there.
As they say, great fascists think alike, right VP?

The truth is that in 1974, 1) GCs were not demanding enosis with Greece, it was a coup that went against our elected President, and 2) the TCs were not killed as you claim. I have challenged you several times to show me evidence that TCs were harmed by GCs in 1974 before the Turkish invasion had started but you have never been able to back up your erroneous claims. Any TCs that were killed in 1974 were only killed during the war that Turkey (and the TCs who invited them, as you said) started against Cyprus on the 20th of July of 1974, and where many thousands of Greek Cypriots where killed as opposed to a couple of 100s of TCs.

So spare us from your lies and propaganda. The Turkish occupation has always been illegal and inexcusable and no Hitler like excuses can change this.

You can compare us to who you want in order to deflect your own guilt but for TCs Turkeys arrival was a god send. I gave you a whole site on TC deaths pre 1974, yet you choose to ignore facts and label it propaganda as it does not fit in with your brain washed beliefs.

Pre-1974? But you said that in 1974 TCs were killed and that is why Turkey invaded. Do you admit that this is a lie VP?

Nobody doubts that some 100s of TCs and some 100s of GCs died during the intercommunal conflicts between 1958 and 1968.

However those conflicts where totally unrelated to the Turkish invasion of 1974, which occurred 6 whole years later after the last inter communal conflict.

The Turkish invasion happened not because of the inter-communal conflict, not because "TCs were killed" as you erroneously claim, but because of the coup which had made GCs fighting against each other and had left Cyprus undefended. Turkey found that as a good chance to put into action the plans that they had for decades and invaded to occupy 1/3rd of our island.

Even if this is totally true, and in the chaos of the time who is to say exactly when TCs were being killed, can you explain, if you loved us all so much, why GCs attacked and started killing their fellow TC citizens after the Turkish Army arrived.

TCs would certainly have been killed if the coup had succeeded (Sampson interview frequently quoted) and there is at least a strong possibility that the coup, with Greek backing, would have succeeded if the Turkish Army had not arrived.

I think that you would have to speak to many TCs alive in '74 before finding one who was not grateful for the arrival of the Turkish Army.

Observer, as VP always says, the TCs invited Turkey to invade. During the war between Cyprus and Turkey the TCs had sided with Turkey and they, along with the Turkish army, killed 1000s of Greek Cypriots. Yes, in that war about 200 TCs were killed as well.

The fact is that Turkey started that war, and it is a big fat lie of your propaganda that the invasion supposedly happened to "protect the TCs". Not only Turkey invaded without any TC being killed in 1974, but their mass murder and ethnic cleansing of Greek Cypriots, and the subsequent occupation for 33+ years clearly show what was the true aim of Turkey, and lame excuses about "protecting TCs" can not hide the truth.

[cymart]

I fully agree that at the time the A.plan was but nearly 4 years later,do we have a better one because we said 'no' then and will we ever do?
Turkey wins whichever way we look at it,just as Thraki Roussidou Jones son wrote in a letter to last Sundays Cyprus Mail and the sooner people here come down from the clouds and understand that what you think is right doesn't count in todays world,we might finally agree to a compromise and start looking to the future instead of backwards to the past........

[Viewpoint]

observer, Turkey started the war between Cyprus and Turkey by invading Cyprus and illegally occupying 1/3rd of our island.

Sure we had other events in 1974, but not a war between Cyprus and Turkey. May I also remind you that Turkey had many coups, and it is until today ruled by the army. Maybe that should be a reason for another country to invade and occupy Turkey?

Stop trying to find lame excuses please. The invasion and occupation of Cyprus are inexcusable and illegal, and the war that Turkey started by invading our country can end only with the end of their illegal occupation.

We the TCs invited Turkey here to save our lives from GCs demanding union with Greece and the dire position we were forced into over 11 years, no amount of negotiations were going to sort things out as the GCs had us just where they wanted us in the palm of their hands, isolated and desolate, unable to make ourselves heard to the outside world.

Thats the same excuse that Hitler gave to invade Czechoslovakia, to supposedly protect the German minority there.
As they say, great fascists think alike, right VP?

The truth is that in 1974, 1) GCs were not demanding enosis with Greece, it was a coup that went against our elected President, and 2) the TCs were not killed as you claim. I have challenged you several times to show me evidence that TCs were harmed by GCs in 1974 before the Turkish invasion had started but you have never been able to back up your erroneous claims. Any TCs that were killed in 1974 were only killed during the war that Turkey (and the TCs who invited them, as you said) started against Cyprus on the 20th of July of 1974, and where many thousands of Greek Cypriots where killed as opposed to a couple of 100s of TCs.

So spare us from your lies and propaganda. The Turkish occupation has always been illegal and inexcusable and no Hitler like excuses can change this.

You can compare us to who you want in order to deflect your own guilt but for TCs Turkeys arrival was a god send. I gave you a whole site on TC deaths pre 1974, yet you choose to ignore facts and label it propaganda as it does not fit in with your brain washed beliefs.

Pre-1974? But you said that in 1974 TCs were killed and that is why Turkey invaded. Do you admit that this is a lie VP?

Nobody doubts that some 100s of TCs and some 100s of GCs died during the intercommunal conflicts between 1958 and 1968.

However those conflicts where totally unrelated to the Turkish invasion of 1974, which occurred 6 whole years later after the last inter communal conflict.

The Turkish invasion happened not because of the inter-communal conflict, not because "TCs were killed" as you erroneously claim, but because of the coup which had made GCs fighting against each other and had left Cyprus undefended. Turkey found that as a good chance to put into action the plans that they had for decades and invaded to occupy 1/3rd of our island.

Even if this is totally true, and in the chaos of the time who is to say exactly when TCs were being killed, can you explain, if you loved us all so much, why GCs attacked and started killing their fellow TC citizens after the Turkish Army arrived.

TCs would certainly have been killed if the coup had succeeded (Sampson interview frequently quoted) and there is at least a strong possibility that the coup, with Greek backing, would have succeeded if the Turkish Army had not arrived.

I think that you would have to speak to many TCs alive in '74 before finding one who was not grateful for the arrival of the Turkish Army.

Observer, as VP always says, the TCs invited Turkey to invade. During the war between Cyprus and Turkey the TCs had sided with Turkey and they, along with the Turkish army, killed 1000s of Greek Cypriots. Yes, in that war about 200 TCs were killed as well.

The fact is that Turkey started that war, and it is a big fat lie of your propaganda that the invasion supposedly happened to "protect the TCs". Not only Turkey invaded without any TC being killed in 1974, but their mass murder and ethnic cleansing of Greek Cypriots, and the subsequent occupation for 33+ years clearly show what was the true aim of Turkey, and lame excuses about "protecting TCs" can not hide the truth.

1963 to 1974 was a dire time for TCs with nothing improving and no sign of a future, do you remember the taunting of the song "you waited for Turkey but the never arrived"? TCs always held onto the hope that Turkey would some day turn up and save them from GCs persection and discrimination. The coup in 1974 was the last straw, the last drop which made the glass overflow, all hell let lose when the Turkish army tried to land as they met with ferocity of GC in the Kyrenia mountains towards the beaches, only with air power were they able to land and set the wheels in motion at which stage it was a full scale war as fear makes humans do evil things. The enosis dream was the biggest mistake you people ever made and although I agree TC wanted Turkey to come and save them, the coup gave them that excuse as TCs were put at risk yet again and looking back we thank Turkey for at last "our wait was not in vain as Turkey did arrive". turning up to bail us out of the crisis we were in.

You are a GC, which period do you prefer?

1963 to 1974 or 1974 to 2007?

[Piratis]

VP, I do not "prefer" periods, unlike you I see the whole truth.

First of all you keep referring to the period as "1963-1974", trying to link the inter-communal conflict with the Turkish Invasion. The truth is that the inter-communal conflict was from 1958-1968, 6 whole years before the Turkish invasion. Go check again the lists with your victims that you publish everywhere to demonstrate your suffering during the inter-communal conflict. (forgetting of course to show the victims we had during the same period). There you will see that even your inflated numbers (since they include people killed by TMT which you blamed on GCs), are from 58 until 68. Between 1968 and 20th of July of 1974, the day of the Turkish invasion, there was no inter-communal conflict.

Secondly you are trying to blame GCs exclusively for the inter-communal conflict, while the truth you have also killed about as many GCs, and that your responsibility about starting that conflict is at least equal.

Go to watch the videos I post here: http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=14652 where you will see how the inter-communal conflict started, and how you demanded partition before any inter-communal conflict had started.

So spare us your propaganda lies. Neither your partition dream, nor the Turkish invasion was a result of any TC suffering. Both where the result of the Turkish plan to capture the northern part of Cyprus.

[Piratis]

I fully agree that at the time the A.plan was but nearly 4 years later,do we have a better one because we said 'no' then and will we ever do?

Cymart, Cypriots did not reject the AP because it was "good" but they expected something "better". It was rejected because although we are in a very bad situation right now with the AP we would be in much worst. So people had to choose between the bad and the worst, and they of course choose the bad.

I hope you do understand that except from the sticker "united Cyprus" which would practically be an official partition since the Turks would have full control over 1/3rd of our country, and that 7% of land that maybe we would be given back, there was absolutely no other positive in the AP, while it had a ton of negatives as I have explained them about 100 times by now.

[Nikitas]

TO Observer and Cymart,

You both ponder about the post Annan possibilities for a solution. Well there are possibilities and in my view the imporovements could be as follows-

As all solutions proposed post 1974 it will be based on the BBF, with the added benefits of EU membership and EU principles. And also:

remove all mention of British bases from the plan. The base issues to be solved after the solution is arrived at in negotiations between the new government and Britain. In principle the base areas will involve the constituent state on whose territory they lie, ie the GC state.

Define the territorial areas more precisly and limit their future dimensions, ie the TC state to be so much of the ISLAND area and no more in the future, and a similar definition for the GC area. Specify that the bases rest on the GC area.

Constitutional order based on EU acquis and human rights conventions, a provision that solves much of the problem regarding individual rights and the property issue. Community status has been agreed to be based on political equality.

All disputes and deadlocks not solved locally to be submitted to the European Court, most competent authority considering tha overriding role of the EU acquis in the constitution.

No guarantors. We have seen what our guarantors have done in the past, we do not need them as members of the EU.

The above is cerntainly beter than the Annan-Hannay attempt to saddle us with bigger British bases and foreign guarantors. In case you doubt the gorwth of the bases read the provisions regarding them having 12 mile territorial waters and their own economic zone in the sea.

[Piratis]

Nikitas, accepting BBF was a huge compromise from our part. However it doesn't mean we would accept whatever is labeled as "BBF". It also goes without saying that we expect from TCs to make a compromise of an equal magnitude from their rights so nobody will be better off or worst off than the 1960 agreements.

Here is a BBF I would accept:

1) To have two states and land distribution to be 18% for north state, 82% for south state. (this covers that Bizonal part)

2) Both states to be just Cypriot states without references to Greek or Turkish (except when referring to language), open equally to all Cypriot citizens without any kind of discrimination.

3) To put a limit on the Greek speaking Cypriots that can be official residents of the north state, and a limit of the Turkish speaking Cypriots that can be residents of the south state, and in this way ensuring that the north state will have a Turkish speaking majority and the south state a Greek Speaking majority (this covers the Bicommunal part)

4) The system to be based on a well functioning true federation like the USA, Russia or Germany. Each state will be able to control certain things, and have its own police etc, but both states to be under the central government which will be democratically elected by all Cypriots as a whole. In the USA for example more populous states elect more electors, to ensure that the "one man one vote" democratic principle is followed as closely as possible. (this covers the Federation part)

5) No guarantors and no British Bases. This will be a new agreement between Cypriots. Since the UK failed to guarantee the independence and sovereignty of Cyprus and we were forced to make different agreements, this means that the UK and the other "guarantors" lose any privilages they got on our island since they didn't do their job right.

6) RoC will be dissolved and the new state will be created only when Turkey withdraws her troops from all territories that will be part of the south Cypriot state.

[humanist]

HELL NO TURKEY IS A lying bitch