Cyprus-Forum.com

[boomerang]

yeah right copperline...the US and Australia is no more fascist than turkey


You know something I am gonna use this as my catch phrase...I hope you donn't mind...

PS...I always knew you are biased copperline, but never to this extend...the extend that you cannot see the right from the wrong...If you gonna debate with blinkers on, then I ask you what is the point of debating?


Oh well I will wait for the cheer squad to take over then

[CopperLine]

Boomerang

What's the point of discussing/arguing ? Because we might learn something from each other, we might open ourselves to different interpretations or different appreciations and not because we present ourselves as the way the truth and the light.

One example for you that I can use to explain why I just can't be bothered carrying on the exchange with you :

This is what I actually said :

And no I do not think that the Turkish state is inherently fascist any more than I think that the US or Australian state is inherently fascist or liberal or whatever.

From those words you derived a (mistaken) conclusion that I was :

equating the US and Australia as fascist, same level as turkey

In other words you concluded exactly the opposite from what I had written and meant.

I'll now repeat exactly what I said but with bold letters so that it leaves no room for no doubt

And no I do not think that the Turkish state is inherently fascist any more than I think that the US or Australian state is inherently fascist or liberal or whatever.

Now I don't know whether you are a native English speaker or not, but what I do know is that the phrase 'any more than' is a comparative term and I do know that the word 'or' is a synoym for an option or substitute. Thus the phrase 'fascist or liberal or whatever' means replace the noun referring to one kind of political regime with another noun (strictly speaking, an adjectival noun) referring to any other political regime. So, far from me saying that the US or Australia was fascist, I actually said that whether one thinks of these states as fascist or liberal or whatever other kind of political regime, they are not inherently of that kind. Categorically what I did not say was that the US or Australia was fascist -I don't believe them to be so for the very reason I already explained, namely I do not think that any state is inherently X. In other words I make a double argument (1) that states are not inherently of any particular regime kind, and (2) ipso facto neither Turkey, US or Australia or any other state is inherently fascist, liberal, or any other regime kind. You turn this and throw it back and insist that I am saying that (i) states are inherently of a given kind and (2) that US and Australia are fascist.

So, my reluctance to further exchange is that I've got better things to do with my coffee breaks than explain to you the errors of every perverse conclusion that you come to.

So whatever you say ...

[boomerang]

No copperline it means as I interpreted it...

And in any case if you meant the opposite, why the hell then are we debating as to why turkey is a fascist state...we are in agreement then...

As to your question as to why I do not offer a solution, I did, but in your eagerness to argue for the hell of it, you missed the point...here is my point again...

Further more I would like to add in order for turkey to join the 21st century she needs to become a true democracy, and embrace her violent past with the abolition of the broad meaning of article 301...either scrap it or define it...

How can you then say I have no solidarity with the dissidents...are you for real?

Copperline for the fact there are people silenced with the blessing of the state it points to me fascism is alive and well in turkey...wouldn't you agree?

So, my reluctance to further exchange is that I've got better things to do with my coffee breaks than explain to you the errors of every perverse conclusion that you come to.

I think you rinability to understand what I was saying played a big part in your deviating from topic.

Are you a TC or a turk?...time to come clean...then we at least can understand each others position better...My bet, a TC with a lot of attachment to turkey...this explains a lot...Nationalism alive and rampant...


PS...in anycase I like your switcheroo...a class act copperline...

[shahmaran]

Shahmaran,

Having said that, has anyone got any links in English about the recent release of the US archives regarding the period of 1974, explaining the Greek plans of invading Turkey during the time Turkey was planning to invade Cyprus? I just saw it on the news.

I'm not sure which you are referring to, but here are a couple of readily accessible sites which have a rich collection of archival material (though both from USA).

The first is the excellent 'National Security Archive' held at George Washington University (in DC) :

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/

Use the very effective search/filter system

You could spend months and months in these archives. Please note that this is not a government archive as its' title might suggest, in fact many of the archive materials have been secured by FOIA. But it is one of the best sources - certainly of online sources - available anywhere in the world.

And the second is the 'Cold War History Project' from the Wilson Centre :

http://www.wilsoncenter.org/index.cfm?topic_id=1409&fuseaction=topics.home

http://www.wilsoncenter.org/index.cfm?topic_id=1409&fuseaction=va2.browse&sort=Coverage&item=Cyprus

http://www.wilsoncenter.org/index.cfm?topic_id=1409&fuseaction=va2.browse&sort=Coverage&item=Turkey

Warning to Boomerang : interpretations of this material vary. You'll have to stop and think carefully about this material - it will not give you a black-or-white answer. Unlike with wikipedia, the lazy man's spin machine, you'll actually have to exercise that grey matter if you want to try and make sense of the world.

Greece mulled attack on Turkey after Cyprus intervention

December 25, 2007 4:37 AM

Greece had considered attacking Turkey through their mutual border following Ankara's move to send troops to Cyprus in July 1974, in the wake of an Athens-engineered coup on the eastern Mediterranean island, according to a U.S. intelligence report written 32 years ago and released by the State Department over the weekend.

The 873-page-long archive released on U.S. relations with Cyprus, Turkey and Greece from 1973 to 1976 covers the transcripts of then Secretary of State Henry Kissinger's talks with U.S. presidents and Turkish, Greek, Cypriot and British leaders, as well as minutes of his meetings with senior U.S. officials, correspondences with the U.S. embassies in Ankara, Athens and Nicosia, and several political and intelligence assessment reports.

The 1974 Cyprus crisis came amid the Watergate scandal arguably the worst political turmoil in U.S. history. At the height of the scandal, then U.S. President Richard Nixon was forced to resign and was replaced by Gerald Ford in early August when hostilities on the island were continuing.

But many of the documents had several sentences or paragraphs not declassified because of still ongoing sensitivities. Such parts were deleted from the released texts.

The intelligence report titled "Study Prepared by the Intelligence Community Staff for Director of Central Intelligence (William) Colby" and dated January 1975 evaluated the Cyprus crisis in terms of the U.S. intelligence community's performance.

Intelligence woes:

The U.S. intelligence failed to provide a warning on July 3-15 on plans by Dimitrios Ioannides, leader of a military junta then ruling Greece, for a coup against Cypriot President Archbishop Makarios, the report said. As a result, the U.S. could take no preventive action and the coup took place on July 15, catching Washington off guard.

But when Turkey planned retaliatory military intervention on Cyprus on July 15-20, the U.S. intelligence community provided "explicit warning, including date," the report said. Nevertheless, "the State Department took little, if any, preventive action, claiming that it did not get the message," it said.

The report then said that "Greece threatened a Thrace offensive" on Turkey on July 20-25, but that the U.S. intelligence provided strong warning.However, the part on U.S. preventive action was deleted because it was not declassified.

Later when Turkey planned a second phase of offensive on Aug. 1-15, the U.S. intelligence's "warning was confusing and unconvincing," and the State Department was caught off guard, the report said.

Ford, Kissinger back Turkey:

Other highlights from the 247 documents released include the following:

- In a telegram from the U.S. Embassy in Athens to the State Department on July 15, U.S. ambassador Joseph Tasca said of Nikos Sampson, leader of the Greek-inspired coup in Nicosia, "he is an out and out gangster, a gorilla-type with no compunctions against murder and assassination."

- Speaking to Ford on Aug. 9, Kissinger said: "The British are backing the Greeks now and are even threatening military action against the Turks, which is one of the stupidest things I've heard."

- In another conversation between the two men on Aug. 20, Ford told Kissinger: "Remember, the situation was precipitated by the Greek government, and wasdisapproved of by the United States and the world. When they did it, they couldn't take the advantage of it. But the Turks could and did it."

Later, both Ford and Kissinger fought hard against a U.S. congressional move to declare an arms embargo against Turkey, but failed to stop the initiative that took effect in February 1975. Kissinger qualified the move as a "foreign policy disaster."

Some 33 years after the Cyprus crisis, the island is still divided into two. The closest the two sides came to reunification was in April 2004, when they voted on a U.N.-sponsored plan.

But while Turkish Cypriots overwhelmingly voted in favor of the reunification referendum, a vast majority of Greek Cypriots rejected it. Despite this, the European Union shortly after admitted Greek Cyprus as a full member.

This was the one i was wondering about CopperLine, thanks tho...