Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

This is how it works T_C.

Cyprus blocks EU's endorsement/approval of Kosovo's Unilateral Independence for a unanimous vote, which helps Russia and in return, Russia blocks "TRNC's" lifting of isolation at the Security Council, which helps Cyprus.

Where would this world be without POLITICS.

[T_C]

lol I know Kikapu I was only joking anyways man. I doubt GCs have to beg Russia for support considering they share the same religion and what not....

[Kikapu]

one thing has to be understood TCs do not want recognition at any cost .

I saw this earlier today, and could not stop thinking about it. So what I want to know from you is, what cost are you willing to pay to have a recognised state of your own,

a) able to rule yourself

b) to be able to administer justice as you wish

c) to become respectable member of the UN

d) your neighbours not hate you

e) anything and everything that any country that enjoys Freedom, Liberty and Democracy.

Don't tell me what you will not do, because those I already know. As of now, to solve the problem between the GC's and the TC's, what will you offer to do, in order to have your own Independent State from the RoC. I just want to know whether or not you are capable of having your own Independent State and at what price, because if you are not willing to pay towards what you want, then it is no use making arguments and complaints of the GC's for not agreeing on peace thus far. This is not a trick question. So once again, what price would you pay to satisfy all those whom are involved in the Cyprus problems to have your own Independent State.

The biggest stumbling block appears to be land, I would return between 8-10% of land and allow the GCs who want their land back in the TRNC to live with us, I and many TCs would be willing to allow GCs back if that was their desire or pay compensation to those that did not.

I thought this would be the main point of negotiations, but this was very clearly turned down when it was presented in the AP, besides, what you are offering here, is something that does not belong to you (plural) to begin with. So what you are saying is, lets do a 70-30 split , just like the 1960 Constitution ratios on Government jobs, shake hands and say goodbye. I have a feeling the "no man's land" between the North and South is pretty much close to what you are offering, so basically you just want to return some "dead land" and parts of Famagusta..

As you know, from many conversations on this forum, the GC's will not accept anything less than 82-18, so what we are talking here is another 10-12% more land to be given back to the South. But you are saying, if any GC wants to come and live in the North, then they are free to do so. That will happen if they are treated as equal citizens and not with one rule for the TC's and other Nationalities and one rule for the GC's. Even then, their numbers will be very small, who may want to return to their properties in the North.

Now for compensation. How do you propose to do this.?? I can't remember what the $$$Dollar$$$ figures Kifeas gave few months ago, but it was in the Billions on what the GC's owned, and that was before the Dollar went in the toilet. Needles to say, it is worth few Billions more today. It has taken the "TRNC" over a year just to resolve 20 cases with their Land Commission to handle GC claims of their property. Some been paid, some got their land back and some are in limbo. How do you intend on compensating all those who do not wish to return which will be in the thousands. I don't think they will take an "I owe you" from the "TRNC", and there's no money in the "TRNC" to buy everyone out, so how do you propose to solve this problem.??

Since you don't have the money to buy the GC's out from their properties, the only logical thing to do, is to give more land back, keeping around 20% so that you have less GC's to have to compensate, more can return to their homes. I don't even care how many GC's goes to live in the North and subsequently how many TC's chose to live in the South in the final agreement, keep the land divide at 80-20, so that most citizens are happy with the outcome. So, in order to achieve peace and prosperity, you get 20% of Cyprus with full recognition to be your own "EFENDI" as Halil puts it. Isn't all this worth by giving land that does not legally belong to you anyway. You are not ask to give anything that belongs to you. There is always a price to be paid to keep the peace, which is not cheap, in fact, it is bloody expensive. So you say Cyprus problem has nothing to do with property, but rather has to do with security, then lets see the proof. Lets see the "TRNC" make the offer to be their own "EFENDI" by returning land in excess of 20% in the hands of the "TRNC". The GC's are not even going to entertain the idea of giving you Independence, unless they get 80% of Cyprus in their hands.

Somehow I do not see it happening, because it is all about land and not security. I don't even think the "TRNC" wants an Independent State away from the "RoC". They would rather have BBF, so this way they have a partition for all intensive purposes, as well as be in the EU, as well as have an umbilical cord to the RoC for cash, able to get credit , no legal cases against TC's or Turkey regarding land and invasion and any future wealth from the oil as well as keeping Turkey from taking full control of them. BBF is definitely more beneficial to the TC's then a clean break from the RoC.

That's what I think anyway.

[humanist]

Thank God for the Russians

[Viewpoint]

Utu,

You have it right about the troops in the north. Not only there are 40 000 soldiers, but their posture is an offensive one, in military terms. They have 400 tanks, as many APCs and their exercise scenarios involve attacking and taking over more territory. In their joint army-navy-air force exercises the scenarios call for the surrounding of CYprus and severing communications between Greece and the island. The GC national guard can field 80 tanks, no navy and about ten helicopters.

Any one can see that the message for the south is that it is hostage of Turkey. For the rest of the world the message is that Turkey calls the shots in the area. And people like VP do not see this but call this setup a "deterrent".

Nikitas, The preponderence of forces is rather more than is needed purely as a defensive force. Turkey's proximity to Cyprus makes reinforcing the north a very simple matter, so having 40,000 troops there already really makes no sense for the obstensive reason of deterring an attack from the South. 10,000 turkish troops AT A MAXIMUM would have been ample for that goal.

Viewpoint, Accepting your argument that the Turkish Forces have stopped the resumption of the intercommunal violence, why do you think that so many troops are needed to do so? 40,000 is a rather high number compared with what the RoC has. It gives the appearence that the Turkish Troop presence is occupational, rather than protective.

utu what difference does it make? 5000 10000 40000, its a deterrant and has worked for 33 years. The GCs had the opportunity to build a united Cyprus back in 1960 but it didnt work and 1974 changed Cyprus forever the GCs have yet to realize this and therefore are unwilling to share with TCs but in 100 years they will accept the TRNC just like the rest of world. The TRNC is not as bad as GCs want to believe and anyone who visits will see this for themselves, thats what scares GCs we dont need them and having had a taste of self rule means we will never go back to how it was, its to late and to many deep wounds will ensure that both sides dmeand conditions that will change the structure of a united Cyprus if we were ever to unite, thats what GCs cant stomach, scraping the "RoC" for a virgin birth of a United Cyprus Republic as envisaged in the AP.

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu

I thought this would be the main point of negotiations, but this was very clearly turned down when it was presented in the AP, besides, what you are offering here, is something that does not belong to you (plural) to begin with.

The whole AP was rejected and the land issue was just one element so narrowing it down to that one issue would imo not be right, GC refugees will get back Maras and Guzelyurt, plus have the right to return to the live in the TRNC. This goes a long way to resolving the land problems dont you think? your negative approach will not resolve matters but only cause you to throw non exsist problems in solving this issue once and for all. Dont forget what I propose is what GCs see fit for me when asking me to go live in the south. Its OK for us but not for them, whys that?

So what you are saying is, lets do a 70-30 split , just like the 1960 Constitution ratios on Government jobs, shake hands and say goodbye.

Exactly, why not let Cypriots decide which state they wish to reside in north or south, this is why I support a level playing field for both communities with freedom to move and live where ever people wish. Why force union of 2 communities where there is obviously not enough common ground or compromise which in time will only cause conflict.

I have a feeling the "no man's land" between the North and South is pretty much close to what you are offering, so basically you just want to return some "dead land" and parts of Famagusta..

Dead land? Maras and all of Guzelyurt, plus villages cllose to the border even papadops village was being returned..who are you trying to to kid ? around 100.000 were going home, in my book thats a good thing.

As you know, from many conversations on this forum, the GC's will not accept anything less than 82-18, so what we are talking here is another 10-12% more land to be given back to the South. But you are saying, if any GC wants to come and live in the North, then they are free to do so. That will happen if they are treated as equal citizens and not with one rule for the TC's and other Nationalities and one rule for the GC's. Even then, their numbers will be very small, who may want to return to their properties in the North.

Of course they will live in the TRNC as equal citizens just like thousands of foreigners do today, with the right to return and settle in the 25%-29% the land distribution which is also a bone of contention will be less important as GC will be allowed to settle in the north.

Now for compensation. How do you propose to do this.?? I can't remember what the $$$Dollar$$$ figures Kifeas gave few months ago, but it was in the Billions on what the GC's owned, and that was before the Dollar went in the toilet. Needles to say, it is worth few Billions more today. It has taken the "TRNC" over a year just to resolve 20 cases with their Land Commission to handle GC claims of their property. Some been paid, some got their land back and some are in limbo. How do you intend on compensating all those who do not wish to return which will be in the thousands. I don't think they will take an "I owe you" from the "TRNC", and there's no money in the "TRNC" to buy everyone out, so how do you propose to solve this problem.??

That will be something we will have to solve if the deal is to work so specuation at this stage is worthless as if presented with the option many things can be achieved, dont forget around 100.000 refugees will return.

Since you don't have the money to buy the GC's out from their properties, the only logical thing to do, is to give more land back, keeping around 20% so that you have less GC's to have to compensate, more can return to their homes. I don't even care how many GC's goes to live in the North and subsequently how many TC's chose to live in the South in the final agreement, keep the land divide at 80-20, so that most citizens are happy with the outcome. So, in order to achieve peace and prosperity, you get 20% of Cyprus with full recognition to be your own "EFENDI" as Halil puts it. Isn't all this worth by giving land that does not legally belong to you anyway. You are not ask to give anything that belongs to you. There is always a price to be paid to keep the peace, which is not cheap, in fact, it is bloody expensive. So you say Cyprus problem has nothing to do with property, but rather has to do with security, then lets see the proof. Lets see the "TRNC" make the offer to be their own "EFENDI" by returning land in excess of 20% in the hands of the "TRNC". The GC's are not even going to entertain the idea of giving you Independence, unless they get 80% of Cyprus in their hands.

I have always declared that I personally would accept 18% tomorrow but where in the world has the land distribution been based on the land ownership or population percentages...plus there are many claims that GCs stole land from TCs during the 40s and 50s let have an independent body to investigate these claims and put these claims to rest once and for all.

Somehow I do not see it happening, because it is all about land and not security. I don't even think the "TRNC" wants an Independent State away from the "RoC". They would rather have BBF, so this way they have a partition for all intensive purposes, as well as be in the EU, as well as have an umbilical cord to the RoC for cash, able to get credit , no legal cases against TC's or Turkey regarding land and invasion and any future wealth from the oil as well as keeping Turkey from taking full control of them. BBF is definitely more beneficial to the TC's then a clean break from the RoC.

That's what I think anyway.

You have the right to have a viewpoint just as I have the right not to agre e with you....the last 4 years has influenced TCs into wanting separation as people have realized that GCs are so cunning they would twist and manipulated any partnership to their advanatge sweeping us into minority status without any community rights allowing us to say no, just like in the EU or UN.