Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

So when the population of a country fight against their foreign rulers, and a tiny minority within that population collaborates with those foreign rulers, what do you call that tiny minority?

You call them traitors, not just in Cyprus, but everywhere. Go read the history of every country that was under foreign occupation, and there you will see many references about traitors who were collaborating with the occupation forces.

EOKA was formed to liberate Cyprus, just like it previously happened with several other Greek territories and islands. There was nothing wrong with this noble cause. The EOKA struggle for liberation started in 1955. The inter-communal conflict started years later with TCs attacking Greek Cypriots and collaborating with the colonialists against our fighters.

So yes, you can express your opposition to our legitimate choice, and I have even excused your actions against us. It is unfortunate that you can not also recognize our right to fight for liberation after centuries of oppression by British, Turks and others.

According to you there was no problem if Cyprus was ruled by Turks, British and others who oppressed the Cypriot population and killed 10000s of Cypriots, but it was a problem because the Cypriots fought against those foreign rulers and wanted to rule and decide the destiny of their own island.

[zan]

So when the population of a country fight against their foreign rulers, and a tiny minority within that population collaborates with those foreign rulers, what do you call that tiny minority?

You call them traitors, not just in Cyprus, but everywhere. Go read the history of every country that was under foreign occupation, and there you will see many references about traitors who were collaborating with the occupation forces.

EOKA was formed to liberate Cyprus, just like it previously happened with several other Greek territories and islands. There was nothing wrong with this noble cause. The EOKA struggle for liberation started in 1955. The inter-communal conflict started years later with TCs attacking Greek Cypriots and collaborating with the colonialists against our fighters.

So yes, you can express your opposition to our legitimate choice, and I have even excused your actions against us. It is unfortunate that you can not also recognize our right to fight for liberation after centuries of oppression by British, Turks and others.

According to you there was no problem if Cyprus was ruled by Turks, British and others who oppressed the Cypriot population and killed 10000s of Cypriots, but it was a problem because the Cypriots fought against those foreign rulers and wanted to rule and decide the destiny of their own island.

Your problem is that you do not know the meaning of a just cause.....ENOSIS was not just in the circumstances and no matter what spin you put on it it will never be. The rights of a majority does not mean the trampling of the minorities...Simple as that.

[Nikitas]

Zan, obviously you do not know the course of the EOKA campaign, the series of events, so you just spout slogans.

The first two years were a straight forward anti British fight. As was foreseeable the British pushed back and one of the means used was the informer. In my grandfather's vilage the informer was brough to the cofee house, his head covered in a mask and he pointed people out. The process was similar in other areas. These people were then subjected to that other thing the British never do, torture. If they confessed they were tried and sentenced (a fair number of them hanged for small offences like owning shotgun cartridges). If they did no confess they were sent to the internment camps in Kokkinotrimithia to beheld without trial.

To say that EOKA at this time killed GCs for no reason is nonsense. Informers were killed. Those who sympathised with the British were warned to stop. As far as I know there was no forced funding of EOKA as Deniz says above. To do that would put the secrecy of the whole enterprise at risk. The hangman was always there for caught EOKA men.

After late 1957 when the British brought in the TCs as a counterforce the intercommunal violence started in earnest. But I do recall a warning given by EOKA, in the form of leaflets in all major towns, that if the attacks on GCs did not stop it would retaliate against TCs. Grivas details the events that led to the decision to do this in his memoirs.

Now where you find Megali Idea in all ths is baffling. Megali Idea was the goal of Greece spanning two continents and five seas and it was Venizelos's baby. Cyprus did not feature in those plans and Megali Idea has nothing to do with kicking the British out of the island.

You seem to have a problem accepting that TMT initiated the intercommunal violence in the 50s. And that it was a ploy to keep the TC community under control and separate from the GCs. EOKA did not want to get involved in this because it could not fight in the open against both the British and TMT. You conveniently forget the fate that awaited EOKA fighters from the British as you forget the immunity TMT members enjoyed. In the end it was two against one.

Can you name even one TMT member caught by the British? There were none, even though they too had guns and bombs and the possession of these things was punishable by death. When the foreign office papers on the subject become declassified (if they ever do) it will make interesting reading.

[zan]

Zan, obviously you do not know the course of the EOKA campaign, the series of events, so you just spout slogans.

The first two years were a straight forward anti British fight. As was foreseeable the British pushed back and one of the means used was the informer. In my grandfather's vilage the informer was brough to the cofee house, his head covered in a mask and he pointed people out. The process was similar in other areas. These people were then subjected to that other thing the British never do, torture. If they confessed they were tried and sentenced (a fair number of them hanged for small offences like owning shotgun cartridges). If they did no confess they were sent to the internment camps in Kokkinotrimithia to beheld without trial.

To say that EOKA at this time killed GCs for no reason is nonsense. Informers were killed. Those who sympathised with the British were warned to stop. As far as I know there was no forced funding of EOKA as Deniz says above. To do that would put the secrecy of the whole enterprise at risk. The hangman was always there for caught EOKA men.

After late 1957 when the British brought in the TCs as a counterforce the intercommunal violence started in earnest. But I do recall a warning given by EOKA, in the form of leaflets in all major towns, that if the attacks on GCs did not stop it would retaliate against TCs. Grivas details the events that led to the decision to do this in his memoirs.

Now where you find Megali Idea in all ths is baffling. Megali Idea was the goal of Greece spanning two continents and five seas and it was Venizelos's baby. Cyprus did not feature in those plans and Megali Idea has nothing to do with kicking the British out of the island.

You seem to have a problem accepting that TMT initiated the intercommunal violence in the 50s. And that it was a ploy to keep the TC community under control and separate from the GCs. EOKA did not want to get involved in this because it could not fight in the open against both the British and TMT. You conveniently forget the fate that awaited EOKA fighters from the British as you forget the immunity TMT members enjoyed. In the end it was two against one.

Can you name even one TMT member caught by the British? There were none, even though they too had guns and bombs and the possession of these things was punishable by death. When the foreign office papers on the subject become declassified (if they ever do) it will make interesting reading.

How you try to distance yourself from the dream of ENOSIS and EOKA is very telling in the rest of what you write...The slogans for ENOSIS were all over the island at thee time of the "Fight For Freedom" and to say that they did not go hand in hand is just laughable. The fact that the TMT was formed to counteract this aggressive take over of Cyprus is just nonsense.

[Nikitas]

Someone posted above that General Grivas was a "far right winger". This is a common view of the man.

What is forgotten is that Grivas did organize the only armed group against the far right wing dictatorship in Greece. The members of the group were army officers, one of them being Moustaklis who later died from the consequences of torture he suffered during his arrest. It is indicative of the "political correctness" that has hit Greece since 1974 that it is NEVER mentioned in the media that Moustaklis was part of Grivas' group of officers. People are led to assume that Moustaklis was left wing or even communist.

Grivas, as a much decorated hero of the Asia Minor and 1940 campaigns, and his role in EOKA, could not be arrested without political repercussions, so he was under house arrest for years.

In the 70s, when the dictators fell out among themselves, and the total maniac Ioannidis succeded Papadopoulos Grivas was sent to Cyprus. This event is crucial in my opinion, because it was part of the double union deal which went wrong. EOKA B at this time was supposedly fighting for Enosis, but it was not straight forward Enosis, it was double Enosis.

I recall a talk with some EOKA B men just outside Famagusta in 1973 when I mentioned possible Turkish reactions to their plans, their answer was "the Turks know and they are OK with this". It was said with certainty and confidence.

[Nikitas]

So the TMT was formed spontaneously and manned by mainland Turkish army officers who just happened to appear in Cyprus? Now that sounds more like nonsense. Amries do not send officers to do things unless there are plans and objectives laid down. The KIP plan was formed and in place and being implemented by 1958. TMT was a part of this plan. Not the only part and not the biggest part, but a part all the same.

[Nikitas]

I do not have to distance myself from Enosis. I have said many times in this forum and elsewhere that I am against it. I have been against it all my adult life for reasons that are not relevant to this discussion.

There is no doubt that EOKA fought for Enosis. I do not find that cause to be wrong at its time, the 50s. Neither do I find it unreasonable for the TCs to oppose it. What is unreasonable is to present Taksim as the only antidote to Enosis. The only reasonable outcome from such a antithesis is double union which is an even worse solution than total union with either motherland. Now, is this clear?

[denizaksulu]

EOKA killed two fine GC's in my village in 1958. Both had large families, something like five kids each. The widow of one them took her family and went to England. EOKA killed twice as many GC's as Brits.

what had these 2 GC's done?

With all respect for those killed, it might be a case of what they did not do.

[Piratis]

The fact that the TMT was formed to counteract this aggressive take over of Cyprus is just nonsense.

How did Cypriots dare to want to "take over" their own island from their foreign rulers? They deserve to die for this, right zan?

Just like the Ottoman Turks where killing us when we revolted against them and wanted our freedom.

During the Greek War of Independence in 1821, the Ottoman authorities feared that Greek Cypriots would rebel again. Archbishop Kyprianos, a powerful leader who worked to improve the education of Greek Cypriot children, was accused of plotting against the government. Kyprianos, his bishops, and hundreds of priests and important laymen were arrested and summarily hanged or decapitated on July 9, 1821.

[denizaksulu]

Zan, obviously you do not know the course of the EOKA campaign, the series of events, so you just spout slogans.

The first two years were a straight forward anti British fight. As was foreseeable the British pushed back and one of the means used was the informer. In my grandfather's vilage the informer was brough to the cofee house, his head covered in a mask and he pointed people out. The process was similar in other areas. These people were then subjected to that other thing the British never do, torture. If they confessed they were tried and sentenced (a fair number of them hanged for small offences like owning shotgun cartridges). If they did no confess they were sent to the internment camps in Kokkinotrimithia to beheld without trial.

To say that EOKA at this time killed GCs for no reason is nonsense. Informers were killed. Those who sympathised with the British were warned to stop. As far as I know there was no forced funding of EOKA as Deniz says above. To do that would put the secrecy of the whole enterprise at risk. The hangman was always there for caught EOKA men.

After late 1957 when the British brought in the TCs as a counterforce the intercommunal violence started in earnest. But I do recall a warning given by EOKA, in the form of leaflets in all major towns, that if the attacks on GCs did not stop it would retaliate against TCs. Grivas details the events that led to the decision to do this in his memoirs.

Now where you find Megali Idea in all ths is baffling. Megali Idea was the goal of Greece spanning two continents and five seas and it was Venizelos's baby. Cyprus did not feature in those plans and Megali Idea has nothing to do with kicking the British out of the island.

You seem to have a problem accepting that TMT initiated the intercommunal violence in the 50s. And that it was a ploy to keep the TC community under control and separate from the GCs. EOKA did not want to get involved in this because it could not fight in the open against both the British and TMT. You conveniently forget the fate that awaited EOKA fighters from the British as you forget the immunity TMT members enjoyed. In the end it was two against one.

Can you name even one TMT member caught by the British? There were none, even though they too had guns and bombs and the possession of these things was punishable by death. When the foreign office papers on the subject become declassified (if they ever do) it will make interesting reading.

How you try to distance yourself from the dream of ENOSIS and EOKA is very telling in the rest of what you write...The slogans for ENOSIS were all over the island at thee time of the "Fight For Freedom" and to say that they did not go hand in hand is just laughable. The fact that the TMT was formed to counteract this aggressive take over of Cyprus is just nonsense.

I normally keep out of political debate, but usually go on personal experience.

As an 8 year old kid at primary school in Kyrenia, I once joined the GC gymnasio students and other young men and kids who were throwing stones at the British forces from rooftops. I clearly remember shouting the same slogans as the GCs.
They were clearly E E EOKA and E E Enosis. Till today I recal these voices as if it was yesterday. Needless to say, I never understood the implications. After the crowds were dispersed with tear gas, I would go home and repeat these words. THEN, it was all explained to me.
To cut a long story short, it is a folly to convince us that the two (EOKA and ENOSIS) are inseperable.
I must admit , the stone throwing was great fun.