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[kalahari]

I really do not mean to be inflammatory by writing this post.

I simply want to know the reasons, and I am addressing this to you Zan because you are the only poster I know for sure (I think) who is in this situation.

Why do the Turkish Cypriots who have found themselves exiled from their homes in southern Cyprus not return home now?

Is it the case that they believe they will be killed by Greek Cypriots?

Having lived here for a while now, as a foreigner, I am aware of the prejudices one has to put up with, but nevertheless the Greek speaking Cypriots strike me as a peaceable enough bunch, unless you walk into the AEL stand dressed in Appollon colours. Many Turkish speaking Cypriots regularly walk the streets of Greek Lefkosia with complete freedom every day. Why can they not just live there?

Who is stopping them?

If the answer is that the present government of ROC prevents Turkish speaking Cypriots from living in the south, tell me – I want to know, because if this IS the case, then that would make them as guilty of exacerbating the situation as the Ankara generals.

If this is not the case, then why not come home, Zan?

(Excuse my innocence, but with all the politics and history, I don't believe I've ever had a simple answer to this simple question.)

[iceman]

Kalahari
You are asking this question to the wrong person...
First of all,Zan lives in UK,not north Cyprus and secondly i believe his family moved to UK long before 1974..

anyway....lets get beck to your question.
You quoted "Having lived here for a while now, as a foreigner, I am aware of the prejudices one has to put up with, but nevertheless the Greek speaking Cypriots strike me as a peaceable enough bunch,"
The difference between you living amongst GC's and us TC's living there is that we are NOT foreigners...
Instead,according to 1960 Constitution we used to have a share in the present ROC government but your "peaceable" GC's did not like that idea,so using their numerical advantage they took the matter in their own hands to get rid of us (but that is another subject i wont go into now)

You also quote "Many Turkish speaking Cypriots regularly walk the streets of Greek Lefkosia with complete freedom every day. Why can they not just live there? Who is stopping them?"

Walking streets of Nicosia in freedom and living there as a partner in the administration is two completely different things....we do not accept to live in ROC under the same conditions as you foreigners do...we want,at least the rights 1960 constitution gave us and until GC's are willing to give us those rights, the present condition will not change..

hope that clears up your confusion..

[zan]

Succinctly put iceman and may I just add, as my name was mentioned in the question, that personally it is also because I have children at school that are coming up to exam age so life is not as simple as uprooting them and coming home, which then leads me on to the fact that home is the TRNC and not wandering the streets of the "RoC".

The question about whether the TCs are stopped from living in the "RoC" is no on paper but there have been many that have not been able to claim their homes back and have been given the same answer that they blamer the TCs for and that is "You can have it back when a solution is reached". So we can move in as foreigners and immigrants but not as the true part owners of Cyprus.

[Piratis]

Let me explain it to you kalahari.

The TCs are an 18% of the population. Yet they have never accepted to get in Cyprus what proportionately belongs to them, but they always wanted to have gains on our loss. This greediness in them didn't come out of the blue of course. Gains on our loss is exactly what was and is promised to them by Turkey and UK, who have used the TC minority as the vehicle to deny to Cypriots their self determination on their own island, so they could maintain troops on our island and control us.

Today for example this 18% of TCs keeps under occupation the 36% of land, twice as much than what belongs to them. And the only "solution" they accept is one that they will make them gain even more on our loss, e.g. 50% power - thats 3 times more than what proportionately belongs to them.

So no, we never had a problem to share with TCs - that is a lie of the Turkish propaganda. The problem is that TCs (encouraged by Turkey/UK) wanted and continue to want their share to be far larger than what proportionately belongs to them, and our share to be far smaller than what proportionately belongs to us. And that is what we did not and do not accept because it is both unfair and undemocratic.

[kalahari]

So we can move in as foreigners and immigrants but not as the true part owners of Cyprus.

Now let me make it quite clear that I realise what it is to feel like a foreigner in your own homeland – I'm English, after all.

But now I have made my home here in Cyprus. Yes, I may be an alien on paper, but I am a Cypriot now in my heart. As for the litmus test of who would you support if they were playing cricket against each other – well, I still support the English Rugby team, but my season ticket is AEL.

So, and here is the nub of my question, why can a Turkish Cypriot not come into Limassol and buy property and get a job and LIVE in the ROC as a CYPRIOT, like me?

Is there anything stopping him? Apart from pride or fear?

From your answers so far, this is not clear.

And is it the case, Zan, that your family come from the North?

home is the TRNC and not wandering the streets of the "RoC"

If that is so, then surely nothing, since 1974, has been stopping you from returning apart from personal circumstance.

[iceman]

So we can move in as foreigners and immigrants but not as the true part owners of Cyprus.

Now let me make it quite clear that I realise what it is to feel like a foreigner in your own homeland – I'm English, after all.

But now I have made my home here in Cyprus. Yes, I may be an alien on paper, but I am a Cypriot now in my heart. As for the litmus test of who would you support if they were playing cricket against each other – well, I still support the English Rugby team, but my season ticket is AEL.

So, and here is the nub of my question, why can a Turkish Cypriot not come into Limassol and buy property and get a job and LIVE in the ROC as a CYPRIOT, like me?

Is there anything stopping him? Apart from pride or fear?

From your answers so far, this is not clear.

And is it the case, Zan, that your family come from the North?

home is the TRNC and not wandering the streets of the "RoC"

If that is so, then surely nothing, since 1974, has been stopping you from returning apart from personal circumstance.

Kalahari
Which part of my post did you not understand?
Unlike Zan,i am from Limassol and my family left plenty of property there but due to the points i tried to make in my earlier post i have no desire to go back there and get treated as a foreigner or a minority citizen...

[kalahari]

Okay, iceman

So the answer to my question is, there is nothing stopping any Turkish speaking Cypriot from relocating into the southern part of Cyprus as a permanent resident.

The individual would need to apply for citizenship? This is still not clear. If they WOULD need to apply for citizenship, despite being born in Cyprus, then surely that is official recognition by RoC of the status of the TRNC. Yes, no?

If they do not need to apply for citizenship then there really is nothing stopping them. You state your reasons for not availing yourself of this situation as being

i have no desire to go back there and get treated as a foreigner or a minority citizen

That's fair enough – but it's your choice. That's all I wanted to know.

[Piratis]

i have no desire to go back there and get treated as a foreigner or a minority citizen...

But iceman, you are a citizen belonging to a minority. Being a "minority citizen" doesn't mean any of your rights are violated. You would be an equal citizen like everybody else. On the contrary by recognizing that there is in fact a TC minority (something which Turkey denied for the Kurds, until recently at least) gives you some minority rights which are extra rights aimed to offer an additional protection to minority groups. (without of course violating the rights of anybody else)

On the other hand, you trying to gain land and power that does not belong to you does violate the democratic and human rights of every other Cypriot, and thats exactly the problem.

[kalahari]

The fundamental problem that this post has raised, which I admit that up until now I was not aware of, is that there seems to be nothing stopping all the Turkish speaking Cypriots in the north crossing the green line and coming to live in the southern part of the Republic of Cyprus.

Is this the case? Please correct me if I'm wrong. Incidentally I don't count fear or pride or resentment as legitimate reasons. I sympathise with them, of course, but they represent personal choice, not tyranny.

[iceman]

i have no desire to go back there and get treated as a foreigner or a minority citizen...

But iceman, you are a citizen belonging to a minority. Being a "minority citizen" doesn't mean any of your rights are violated. You would be an equal citizen like everybody else. On the contrary by recognizing that there is in fact a TC minority (something which Turkey denied for the Kurds, until recently at least) gives you some minority rights which are extra rights aimed to offer an additional protection to minority groups. (without of course violating the rights of anybody else)

On the other hand, you trying to gain land and power that does not belong to you does violate the democratic and human rights of every other Cypriot, and thats exactly the problem.

Piratis
since you always like to back up your arguments with documents i suggest you reread the 1960 constitution to see if we are minority or not....According to the constitution we are one of the two communities forming the republic,the fact that our numbers are less than the GC community doesn't make us a minority in political terms..



APPENDIX D
DRAFT CONSTITUTION OF THE REPUBLIC OF CYPRUS
PART I. ­ GENERAL PROVISIONS

ARTICLE 2

For the purposes of this Constitution ­


(1) the Greek Community comprises all citizens of the Republic who are of Greek origin and whose mother tongue is Greek or who share the Greek cultural traditions or who are members of the Greek­Orthodox Church;

(2) the Turkish Community comprises all citizens of the Republic who are of Turkish origin and whose mother tongue is Turkish or who share the Turkish cultural traditions or who are Moslems;

(3) citizens of the Republic who do not come within the provisions of paragraph (1) or (2) of this Article shall, within three months of the date of the coming into operation of this Constitution, opt to belong to either the Greek or the Turkish Community as individuals, but, if they belong to a religious group, shall so opt as a religious group and upon such option they shall be deemed to be members of such Community:

Provided that any citizen of the Republic who belongs to such a religious group may choose not to abide by the option of such group and by a written and signed declaration submitted within one month of the date of such option to the appropriate officer of the Republic and to the Presidents of the Greek and the Turkish Communal Chambers opt to belong to the Community other than that to which such group shall be deemed to belong:

Provided further that if an option of such religious group is not accepted on the ground that its members are below the requisite number any member of such group may within one month of the date of the refusal of acceptance of such option opt in the aforesaid manner as an individual to which Community he would like to belong.

For the purposes of this paragraph a " religious group " means a group of persons ordinarily resident in Cyprus professing the same
religion and either belonging to the same rite or being subject to the same jurisdiction thereof the number of whom, on the date of the coming into operation of this Constitution, exceeds one thousand out of which at least five hundred become on such date citizens of the Republic;

(4) a person who becomes a citizen of the Republic at any time after three months of the date of the coming into operation of this Constitution shall exercise the option provided in paragraph (3) of this Article within three months of the date of his so becoming a citizen;

(5) a Greek or a Turkish citizen of the Republic who comes within the provisions of paragraph (1) or (2) of this Article may cease to belong to the Community of which he is a member and belong to the other Community upon ­

(a) a written and signed declaration by such citizen to the effect that he desires such change, submitted to the appropriate officer of the Republic and to the Presidents of the Greek and the Turkish Communal Chambers;

(b) the approval of the Communal Chamber of such other Community;

(6) any individual or any religious group deemed to belong to either the Greek or the Turkish Community under the provisions of paragraph (3) of this Article may cease to belong to such Community and be deemed to belong to the other Community upon ­


(a) a written and signed declaration by such individual or religious group to the effect that such change is desired, submitted to the appropriate officer of the Republic and to the Presidents of the Greek and the Turkish Communal Chambers;

(b) the approval of the Communal Chamber of such other Community;

(7) (a) a married woman shall belong to the Community to which her husband belongs.

(b) a male or female child under the age of twenty­one who is not married shall belong to the Community to which his or her father belongs, or, if the father is unknown and he or she has not been adopted, to the Community to which his or her mother belongs.

http://www.kypros.org/Constitution/Engl ... art_i.html



now,to clarify who is minority and who is not i suggest you read

ARTICLE 2
Introduction
PART III
CITIZENSHIP
THE SMALLER RELIGIOUS GROUPS

29. The Armenians, Maronites and Latins constitute three separate religious groups in the island. A statement by Her Majesty's Government on constitutional safeguards for these groups in accordance with paragraph B (2) (i) of the United Kingdom Declaration made at the London Conference of February, 1959 (Document III of Cmnd. 679) is at Appendix E to this Paper. This statement has been accepted by Archbishop Makarios and Dr. Kutchuk.

http://www.kypros.org/Constitution/Engl ... ction.html