Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

Yet another post from Zan where he pretends to be the virgin Mary that has to be rewarded on the loss of the "evil" Greek Cypriots and there is no mention of the crimes and suffering that every single generation of Cypriots had to go through during the last 4+ centuries due to the Turkish aggression and expansionism against our island.

What is rightfully yours is NOT the control and rule of the north part of our country. The part you illegally occupy is the homeland of 5 times more Greek Cypriots than Turkish Cypriots, and Greek Cypriots have a far far longer history on that land as well. So how the hell is what you illegally stole by brute force and ethnic cleansing yours? Don't confuse what you forcefully and illegally keep with what is yours mate.

If you are waiting for "reality to hit us in the face" and capitulate so we will make it "practical" for you to keep our land and gain on our loss then you need a reality check yourself.

The reality is that although we lost the first battle you didn't manage to kill us off. The reality is that we did much better than you the "winners", and nothing can force us to sign a capitulation agreement. The reality is that we are better off with no solution than the capitulation agreement kind of "solution" you want. The reality is that peace can only come when legality and justice is served, and not by you getting what suits you and what is practical for you in violation of our human and democratic rights.

About the Annan Plan that you keep dreaming about and your accusations about Papadopoulos I have to remind you that it was rejected by the majority of the Cypriot people. Do you know Zan that from all the candidates for the presidential elections in February only one supports the AP and that one receives about 1% of the votes? The candidates that wanted to have any chance of winning the elections were obligated to respect the brave "NO" of the Cypriot people and non of them supports the AP or anything similar to it, although some people like Bananiot hope that Christofias has a hidden agenda, something which if true would be deceiving the Cypriot people and stealing their vote. If any Cypriot president is stupid enough to bring something like the AP back, then you can be 100% sure that it will again be rejected by the Cypriot people.

If you want justice for TCs this can be achieved by allowing justice for all Cypriots. By allowing every Cypriot to get his own home and property back, as well as all his legal and democratic rights. That would be the legal and right way to end the "embargoes" and everything else you shed fake tears about. But what you want is not justice, what you want is gains on our loss, and there is no need to hide behind your finger about it.

And one last thing:

People like Bir and Kikapu are the TCs who always wanted and continue to want a truly united Cyprus. People of your kind have been the partitionists since the 50s, and at no point you wanted one united Cyprus.

With Annan plan you thought that your partition dreams where coming true with the added bonus of EU membership, but as they say dear Zan: "If it sounds too good to be true, it is". If you want a true solution that will bring peace it will be impractical and it will not give you the partition and the huge gains on our loss that you dream about. If you instead choose war and illegalities, then we will both continue to be the losers, with you the biggest ones.

[BirKibrisli]

Zan...I never thought I was in any special position to judge you or anyone. I used your name as I used Piratis' name to symbolise two ways of thinking which will never allow us to find a just solution...I did not mean to attack you personally. I am sorry if it felt that way.In Piratis' case,there is at least a lot of historical accuracy in what he says.He is just selective with his facts,that's all. He reads the events of our recent history correctly from 1974 onwards. His problem is that by blaming everthing on Turkey and the TCs who welcomed Turkey's intervention,and not considering the role GCs and the other foreign powers played in preparing the ground for the inevitable Turkish occupation,he is making a constructive dialogue impossible. But in your case,you are just repeating the TC propaganda perfected by R>R>Denktash over the long years he has been leading us to the disasterous situation we are in now. As far as I am concerned there has been no other single figure in recent Cyprus history who had more to do with where we are now than Denktash himself. And that includes Makarios. Denktash has managed to manipulate the naive dream of Enosis held by by the GCs,the selfserving desire of the British to hang onto Cyprus at all cost,the devilish desire of the Americans not to let the British rip all the oil benefits of Middle east dominance after the WW2,and the pan-Turkish Turanist movement,which I call "unthinking Turkish nationalism", almost single handedly (with the help of the TMT of course) to achieve his old age dream of Taksim...
You do yourself and your homeland a disservice by swallowing his line with the hook and the sinker. I know that my struggle is the lone struggle of an "outsider" who in times past would've been labeled a "traitor". Mine is a noble tradition, which goes back to those trade unionists who were killed by the TMT for not resigning from AKEL back in the 50s,and to the two publishers of the newspaper Cumhuriyet killed,in early 60s, for advocating one people, one nation ,one country type united republic. And many countless others who had to be eliminated,after being labeled "traitors" to the cause...Which cause??? Denktash's cause which is highlighted by two slogans 'Partition or Death' and 'Cyprus is Turkish and will remain Turkish". And the more rcently added one "Without the Turkish troops we are breakfast for GCs"...Knowingly or unknowingly you are supporting this racist,prejudical,bigotted,unthinking Turanist nationalism,Zan...My guess is that you don't know what you are doing. Or I wouldn't even bother to reply to you if I thought otherwise...

[Piratis]

He is just selective with his facts,that's all. He reads the events of our recent history correctly from 1974 onwards. His problem is that by blaming everthing on Turkey and the TCs who welcomed Turkey's intervention,and not considering the role GCs and the other foreign powers played in preparing the ground for the inevitable Turkish occupation,he is making a constructive dialogue impossible.

Bir, I understand the need to "balance" your criticism to Zan, but what you say about me is not accurate.

Yes, some times, I am drawn to the games of the partitionists who are trying to spread hate between Greek and Turkish Cypriots because this serves their partition aim. I am guilty as charged for this but I simply can't resist not to reply to their totally one sided propaganda and outright lies.

Beyond this, I see the whole of Cyprus history and I am not selective at all. At no point I denied the crimes committed against Turkish Cypriots during the inter-communal conflict, all I am asking is for TCs to recognize their own share of responsibility and their own crimes during that conflict. This is something that you do, but Zan and his kind do not.

Also, I am the first in emphasizing the role of the foreign powers. In fact I always say that TCs have been nothing more than the pawns in the tactics of Turkey and the UK to deny the Cypriot people their self-determination and freedom by using their divide and rule methods on us. Pawns can only have a limited responsibility, while most of the responsibility lies with the masterminds. In fact in many occasions I said that the natural feelings of fear and greed have been exploited in the most masterful way in the case of TCs, so those that wanted a piece of our country they could have it by screwing all Cypriots.

[denizaksulu]

He is just selective with his facts,that's all. He reads the events of our recent history correctly from 1974 onwards. His problem is that by blaming everthing on Turkey and the TCs who welcomed Turkey's intervention,and not considering the role GCs and the other foreign powers played in preparing the ground for the inevitable Turkish occupation,he is making a constructive dialogue impossible.

Bir, I understand the need to "balance" your criticism to Zan, but what you say about me is not accurate.

Yes, some times, I am drawn to the games of the partitionists who are trying to spread hate between Greek and Turkish Cypriots because this serves their partition aim. I am guilty as charged for this but I simply can't resist not to reply to their totally one sided propaganda and outright lies.

Beyond this, I see the whole of Cyprus history and I am not selective at all. At no point I denied the crimes committed against Turkish Cypriots during the inter-communal conflict, all I am asking is for TCs to recognize their own share of responsibility and their own crimes during that conflict. This is something that you do, but Zan and his kind do not.

Also, I am the first in emphasizing the role of the foreign powers. In fact I always say that TCs have been nothing more than the pawns in the tactics of Turkey and the UK to deny the Cypriot people their self-determination and freedom by using their divide and rule methods on us. Pawns can only have a limited responsibility, while most of the responsibility lies with the masterminds. In fact in many occasions I said that the natural feelings of fear and greed have been exploited in the most masterful way in the case of TCs, so those that wanted a piece of our country they could have it by screwing all Cypriots.

Your fault Piratis is you compound the issues with your 'lies'. You would be more credible had you kept your 'exagerations' under rein.

[Piratis]

And can you tell me what lies I ever said denizaksulu?

I don't say lies, and if I make a mistake I am always willing to correct it if you point it to me.

[zan]

Zan...I never thought I was in any special position to judge you or anyone. I used your name as I used Piratis' name to symbolise two ways of thinking which will never allow us to find a just solution...I did not mean to attack you personally. I am sorry if it felt that way.In Piratis' case,there is at least a lot of historical accuracy in what he says.He is just selective with his facts,that's all. He reads the events of our recent history correctly from 1974 onwards. His problem is that by blaming everthing on Turkey and the TCs who welcomed Turkey's intervention,and not considering the role GCs and the other foreign powers played in preparing the ground for the inevitable Turkish occupation,he is making a constructive dialogue impossible. But in your case,you are just repeating the TC propaganda perfected by R>R>Denktash over the long years he has been leading us to the disasterous situation we are in now. As far as I am concerned there has been no other single figure in recent Cyprus history who had more to do with where we are now than Denktash himself. And that includes Makarios. Denktash has managed to manipulate the naive dream of Enosis held by by the GCs,the selfserving desire of the British to hang onto Cyprus at all cost,the devilish desire of the Americans not to let the British rip all the oil benefits of Middle east dominance after the WW2,and the pan-Turkish Turanist movement,which I call "unthinking Turkish nationalism", almost single handedly (with the help of the TMT of course) to achieve his old age dream of Taksim...
You do yourself and your homeland a disservice by swallowing his line with the hook and the sinker. I know that my struggle is the lone struggle of an "outsider" who in times past would've been labeled a "traitor". Mine is a noble tradition, which goes back to those trade unionists who were killed by the TMT for not resigning from AKEL back in the 50s,and to the two publishers of the newspaper Cumhuriyet killed,in early 60s, for advocating one people, one nation ,one country type united republic. And many countless others who had to be eliminated,after being labeled "traitors" to the cause...Which cause??? Denktash's cause which is highlighted by two slogans 'Partition or Death' and 'Cyprus is Turkish and will remain Turkish". And the more rcently added one "Without the Turkish troops we are breakfast for GCs"...Knowingly or unknowingly you are supporting this racist,prejudical,bigotted,unthinking Turanist nationalism,Zan...My guess is that you don't know what you are doing. Or I wouldn't even bother to reply to you if I thought otherwise...

I am sorry but you clearly do see yourself as something special and the only person that understands what is going on with the Cyprob and the barbaric Turks.

You go from one insult to another when you come to me mate and a simple sorry will not cut it. You seem to not listen to a single word that I write and keep coming up with the rubbish that others do on this forum. First you call me lier and then tell me I don't know what I am doing. Thanks. Don't feel bad though because I feel the same way about you. You really would do well to just analyze yourself for a while to see the real picture.

I have told you that my mind has been made up by reading and rereading and you automatically assume that I just read Denktas' books and that is all. I am afraid that is your failure and not mine. I made a conscious effort NOT to read anything that Denktas has written from the very beginning of my involvement in the Cyprob, and have only last week been given some books written by him. The fact that you think that I am incapable of reading and making up my own mind is about as bad as it gets in the insult game. You then go on to accuse me of causing or adding to the problem.........You are a sweet guy mate but I think you have been reading too many Ghandi books. The Buddhist mentality that you have is mixed up in your head. The peace you and they try to find only exists in your heads and that is what the Buddhists and you don't really understand. Peace in that fashion can only be found on the highest mountains and when left alone...It is sad fact that the real world has chosen to encroach on this fantasy world and when it did, as in Tibet, no amount of pure thinking stopped them from being massacred. That is the world the rest of us live in and with that thought and mentality, I read on the Cyprob and came to my conclusions. Whether they are the same as Denktas, and how many many other people think, is more a matter of straight thinking than the dream state you seem to be constantly in. I know because I used to be there but then I grew up.

When I see something wrong...Please forgive my impulsive actions...But I tend to try and find out why and then attempt to fix it. If there are obstacles in the way, first identify and then solve. Pointing out the wrongs in a problem does not mean that I have no heart or am a fool for doing so. There are many TCs in Cyprus that need help in letting the world know these problems but I suppose it all depends who you see as the problem and the enemy. You start off by seeing the Turkish people as the enemy and that dictates to your judgement. We all know about the TMT and Turkey but you see them as the enemy and I see that, yes they have a vested interest in Cyprus, but are our partners and our saviors so some allowances have to be made. It is called diplomacy and about scratching each others backs. That is the way the world works and God knows it has been used against us so many times.

You seem to think that because you have had a little involvement with the TMT that you know all there is about them and they were the ones responsible for everything that went on in Cyprus..... ....Never mind the fact that EOKA were formed well before and that ENOSIS is an age old dream and if that means the Greeks can get one over on the Turks then even better. I wonder how far we would have got if we used your method of self defamation in order to deal with the two linked issues of EOKA and ENOSIS. You would not have a problem then because we simply would not be on the island and we would definitely be living in Turkey. Then the strangle hold on Turkey would be complete and we as Turks would have a whole new set of problems to deal with.

Denktas did what he had to do and if it were bad news all the way then he would not have had two agreements pulled out from under him. One with Makarios who then died JUST BEFORE the signing and then with Clerides who got voted out just before the signing. What happened there Bir that says that Denktas did not want a solution.....Perhaps Denktas killed Makarios and used his influence with the GCs to get Clerides out of office...What a guy hey!!!!

Is any of that accurate history for you. Maybe as accurate as Piratis' history often which makes no difference to any argument. On that note....Can you please tell me where in my mosts the history is either made up or wrong so that I do not make he same mistakes again or at least we can talk about them.... As far as I know I made a mistake about the Greeks attacking us before Turkey lands in 1974 but I have had that pointed out to me so I do not do that any more...What else would you like to challenge???? Perhaps the TMT did come before EOKA and you could provide some proof that that is the case.


Anyway....I was going to write a hell of a lot more but I guess it's not worth it. I feel I am arguing against a dream when there isn't one...Making us this fictional creature called a "Cypriot" that includes GCs and TCs isn't going to happen over night. It will take a long time and I will do what I am doing in the hope that we can secure a safe future in that event. That is not what Tpap wants and not what the ENOSIS dream is about. If you really feel the way you do about Denktas then you should be doing all you can to get rid of Tpap and his ilk because he is now known as the Denktas of the GCs to the UN and the EU.[/url]

[denizaksulu]

And can you tell me what lies I ever said denizaksulu?

I don't say lies, and if I make a mistake I am always willing to correct it if you point it to me.

I meant exagerations Piratis.

[Piratis]

Zan, Bir gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed that what you say is due to you being misinformed. However Bir is wrong about this. The truth is that you intentionally don't say the whole truth as you know it, you intentionally grossly exaggerate and you intentionally never admit the share of blame of the Turkish side, hoping that by spreading this kind of one sided and distorted version of history you will be helping "your people" to achieve their dream of partition.

Your aim is partition because you believe it is what serves Turkish Cypriots best. Your aim is not justice for all Cypriots, and your aim is not the truth.

Of course as we understood by now, you don't care about justice and the truth and the "Gandhi stuff" , but about the "real world" material benefits that you can have for yourself and "your people" by following a certain direction. Too bad you can realize that the direction you chosen is harming you more than it is harming your "enemies".

[humanist]

Piratis

If you want justice for TCs this can be achieved by allowing justice for all Cypriots. By allowing every Cypriot to get his own home and property back, as well as all his legal and democratic rights. That would be the legal and right way to end the "embargoes" and everything else you shed fake tears about. But what you want is not justice, what you want is gains on our loss, and there is no need to hide behind your finger about it.

piratis this is an awsome post ..... thanks for talking for all Cypriots mate.

[Piratis]

I meant exagerations Piratis.

Well, there is no exaggeration in the main points I make in the forum, and I guess you know which those points are otherwise you wouldn't call me gramophone

Now if I get in some quarrel I can sometimes exaggerate a bit on some minor points, and also say some things I don't really mean to piss you guys off the way you are trying to piss me off, but if we have a serious discussion I would never exaggerate.