Cyprus-Forum.com

[zan]

BirK, your thread has been the best one on this forum..I feel like I dont need to read anything else anymore about CyprusProb.. your ''dairy'' has been such a good guide for all of us to realize that ''there is no borders but only good or bad people'' If we can cross the borders in our minds, Istinjo may turn the same dream village of your childhood one day..

Never say Never

I cannot agree with that Karma.....Far too simplistic and we desperately need to look at the Cyprob with a clear head. There are many people that cannot cross the border even in their heads let alone bring themselves to do it physically as Bir has shown. It is no good HOPING for a good crop without planting anything......The ground has to be prepared and the right seeds found and watered and watched......Farming has no need of dreams but realities in the work that needs to be done.......

Very wise words Zan. So let us go forth and cultivate the wilderness that is the Cyprob, choose the right seeds sow and cultivate the land as you say. Its your plan, what is stopping you.

btw Happy Bayram and a Happier New year

Bayraminiz Kutlu olsun Deniz....



As to your other question.........Nothing is stopping me and that is what I believe I am doing....Those that are trying to sell me bad seeds are getting an ear full...Is that alright or are we to take what ever we are given......After all....It is our own farm you know.....Knowing what ypou want is far better than buying what is sold don't you think......

I am agreeing with here. With the choosing of the right seeds. Personally I think its too late. Politicians seem to have already set their minds for separation.
Maybe we also are facing the same dilemna as Pres. Makarios with his famous/infamous words of what was desirable and what was feasible (re: Enosis).

What I am saying Deniz is that there is more than one seed out there and the instantly gratifying unification seed is not the right one for the present ground conditions and the season......What I have said all along is that the rotation of crops allows the ground to recover. (Are we getting carried away with the analogy here?)

I am glad to hear that Bir has finally come to this conclusion as much as I am saddened by it. What others need to do is listen to what the people on the ground are telling them and stop all this trying to tell them what is best for them.....There are experts that can work that out. I will not do anything that the TCs in Cyprus do not want...Without them the whole thing is pointless.......They have to live it.

[BirKibrisli]

am reading this as I go along Bir so I cannot see the comments that follow as yet but I want to comment on this post.

The story has been fantastic and the ending disappointing on two counts. First of all it reminds me of all those exams at school when I wrote some fantastic stories only to ruin them by running out of time and finishing off without saying all the things I wanted to say.....Which seems to be the case here.

The second is the snipe you once again took at the TRNC/KKTC....again...a place that you never visited but feel that you have the right to comment on in a negative and uninformed way.......Shame really.



On another point....Why do you and your TCB feel the need to hide his identity...... ........If I had my doubts at the beginning it soon faded away with the irrepressible need of Kifeas to boast, in a round about way, about his ability to multitask at the wheel...........I do understand the need not to be associated with this man but you sounded so proud???

I am sorry the ending has disappointed you,Zan.
Perhaps,subconsciously, I was taking your advice and keeping the rest for the book...

I have visited the trnc in the past,Zan,on numerous ocassions. And I have family and friends there who keep me informed on what's going on. I know we do not agree on this point but I will say it again. I see what is happening in the North as a disaster...Ethnic cleansing with full participation of those who are being cleansed. Those who live there cannot be blamed,for there is very little they can say or do,to resist the overwhelming pressure put on them both from Turkey and from the ROC. But we in the dispora are fortunate enough to have the voice and the opportunity to speak for those who have been taken hostage by nationalism,racism an bigotry...And I am not only talking about Cypriots in the North. A fair and lasting solution can only come from the people themselves. People who put the love of their homeland and their own Cypriotness ahead of any other considerations. People who will take the lessons of the past on board,and find the courage and the will to take their fate in their own hands...Not by people who bury their heads in sand,and keep repeating the old slogans full of hatred,bigotry and racism.Again I am talking about people on both sides of the Greenline...

On your last point...I have no problems disclosing the identity of my TCB.
I am respecting his wishes not to be named on the forum...And yes I am proud to know him. He is an intelligent and most passionate man, one who feels deeply about the injustices, past and present, purpetrated on his people and country. He is a most humane person who has no personal animosity towards his fellow Cypriots who understand and respect the pain he and his people are going through...I am happy and proud to call him my True Cypriot Brother...

[BirKibrisli]

My fathers voice is wringing in my head Bir.....His disappointment came out in anger on our first visit back. I am glad he saw his mum once more before she died though.....

I was trying to convince my mother, who is 87, to visit Istinjo on her trip to the trnc earlier this year. But she didnt think she could bear it,knowing what to expect...She is another person,like London boy's father-in-law,who will meet her maker without having made peace with our tragic past...

[Nikitas]

Bir,

The account is in such sark contrast with the photos, the result hits you like a punch in the stomach. Seeing the place that meant so much in your life almost erased from the map really drove home the full effect of what we euphemistically call the Cyprob on this forum.

I was curious to see Instinjo in the map. I am an eastern Cypriot boy, and know the Famagusta district best of all. So I did a quick search on the net while reading your story and almost every single URL returned was by some developer hawking land or houses or both all over Cyprus.

So in the end it was all for this! For some predatory opportunists to "develop" and sell and make their fortunes on the misery of others. Makes you wonder how much more it will take for people to get pissed off and reclaim their island.

[BirKibrisli]

Bir,

The account is in such sark contrast with the photos, the result hits you like a punch in the stomach. Seeing the place that meant so much in your life almost erased from the map really drove home the full effect of what we euphemistically call the Cyprob on this forum.

I was curious to see Instinjo in the map. I am an eastern Cypriot boy, and know the Famagusta district best of all. So I did a quick search on the net while reading your story and almost every single URL returned was by some developer hawking land or houses or both all over Cyprus.

So in the end it was all for this! For some predatory opportunists to "develop" and sell and make their fortunes on the misery of others. Makes you wonder how much more it will take for people to get pissed off and reclaim their island.

That is the point exactly,Nikitas. The Cypriots lost big time overall. Some of their decendants, often in partnership with foreign interests, are making money out of our misery. All other interested parties have gained too,either politically or strategically. And you are right with your conclusion. Cyprob will only be solved when Cypriots wake up and claim their country back,wiping away the tragic age-old consequences of nationalism,racism, ethnic hatred,prejudice and bigotry...

[zan]

am reading this as I go along Bir so I cannot see the comments that follow as yet but I want to comment on this post.

The story has been fantastic and the ending disappointing on two counts. First of all it reminds me of all those exams at school when I wrote some fantastic stories only to ruin them by running out of time and finishing off without saying all the things I wanted to say.....Which seems to be the case here.

The second is the snipe you once again took at the TRNC/KKTC....again...a place that you never visited but feel that you have the right to comment on in a negative and uninformed way.......Shame really.



On another point....Why do you and your TCB feel the need to hide his identity...... ........If I had my doubts at the beginning it soon faded away with the irrepressible need of Kifeas to boast, in a round about way, about his ability to multitask at the wheel...........I do understand the need not to be associated with this man but you sounded so proud???

I am sorry the ending has disappointed you,Zan.
Perhaps,subconsciously, I was taking your advice and keeping the rest for the book...

I have visited the trnc in the past,Zan,on numerous ocassions. And I have family and friends there who keep me informed on what's going on. I know we do not agree on this point but I will say it again. I see what is happening in the North as a disaster...Ethnic cleansing with full participation of those who are being cleansed. Those who live there cannot be blamed,for there is very little they can say or do,to resist the overwhelming pressure put on them both from Turkey and from the ROC. But we in the dispora are fortunate enough to have the voice and the opportunity to speak for those who have been taken hostage by nationalism,racism an bigotry...And I am not only talking about Cypriots in the North. A fair and lasting solution can only come from the people themselves. People who put the love of their homeland and their own Cypriotness ahead of any other considerations. People who will take the lessons of the past on board,and find the courage and the will to take their fate in their own hands...Not by people who bury their heads in sand,and keep repeating the old slogans full of hatred,bigotry and racism.Again I am talking about people on both sides of the Greenline...

On your last point...I have no problems disclosing the identity of my TCB.
I am respecting his wishes not to be named on the forum...And yes I am proud to know him. He is an intelligent and most passionate man, one who feels deeply about the injustices, past and present, purpetrated on his people and country. He is a most humane person who has no personal animosity towards his fellow Cypriots who understand and respect the pain he and his people are going through...I am happy and proud to call him my True Cypriot Brother...

A great dream Bir but still you are only stating the obvious without the political remedy. This romantic dream that the world will be put right by the people and not politics is rubbish...If you don't mind me saying. That would mean a revolution and more blood shed and then electing more politicians when the time comes...If you are talking about electing the right leaders in the first place, then.....Hallo....What have I been saying for the last two years??????

The problem with moving on is the fact that we have had our history changed and that is something that I do not like.........

[BirKibrisli]

am reading this as I go along Bir so I cannot see the comments that follow as yet but I want to comment on this post.

The story has been fantastic and the ending disappointing on two counts. First of all it reminds me of all those exams at school when I wrote some fantastic stories only to ruin them by running out of time and finishing off without saying all the things I wanted to say.....Which seems to be the case here.

The second is the snipe you once again took at the TRNC/KKTC....again...a place that you never visited but feel that you have the right to comment on in a negative and uninformed way.......Shame really.



On another point....Why do you and your TCB feel the need to hide his identity...... ........If I had my doubts at the beginning it soon faded away with the irrepressible need of Kifeas to boast, in a round about way, about his ability to multitask at the wheel...........I do understand the need not to be associated with this man but you sounded so proud???

I am sorry the ending has disappointed you,Zan.
Perhaps,subconsciously, I was taking your advice and keeping the rest for the book...

I have visited the trnc in the past,Zan,on numerous ocassions. And I have family and friends there who keep me informed on what's going on. I know we do not agree on this point but I will say it again. I see what is happening in the North as a disaster...Ethnic cleansing with full participation of those who are being cleansed. Those who live there cannot be blamed,for there is very little they can say or do,to resist the overwhelming pressure put on them both from Turkey and from the ROC. But we in the dispora are fortunate enough to have the voice and the opportunity to speak for those who have been taken hostage by nationalism,racism an bigotry...And I am not only talking about Cypriots in the North. A fair and lasting solution can only come from the people themselves. People who put the love of their homeland and their own Cypriotness ahead of any other considerations. People who will take the lessons of the past on board,and find the courage and the will to take their fate in their own hands...Not by people who bury their heads in sand,and keep repeating the old slogans full of hatred,bigotry and racism.Again I am talking about people on both sides of the Greenline...

On your last point...I have no problems disclosing the identity of my TCB.
I am respecting his wishes not to be named on the forum...And yes I am proud to know him. He is an intelligent and most passionate man, one who feels deeply about the injustices, past and present, purpetrated on his people and country. He is a most humane person who has no personal animosity towards his fellow Cypriots who understand and respect the pain he and his people are going through...I am happy and proud to call him my True Cypriot Brother...

A great dream Bir but still you are only stating the obvious without the political remedy. This romantic dream that the world will be put right by the people and not politics is rubbish...If you don't mind me saying. That would mean a revolution and more blood shed and then electing more politicians when the time comes...If you are talking about electing the right leaders in the first place, then.....Hallo....What have I been saying for the last two years??????

The problem with moving on is the fact that we have had our history changed and that is something that I do not like.........

I have ben stating the political remedy too,Zan,for donks.
Mine is very simple. We return to to the only agreement we have,and the only constitution we have,and learning the lessons of the past we have another go at creating one multiethnic nation ...This time we kiss goodbye to our tragic mistakes of Enosis and Taksim,and realise that united we stand,divided others stand on our heads...How do we go there from where we are??? Not by revolution. But by finding and electing leaders who are going to lead,instead of follow where their voters want to go. And by using the internationally valid arguments to take our rightful place in our country's republic. For me this is the only way forward left to the people of Cyprus. The way things are we will never agree to any BBF or any Con-Federation,or even to any Partition. The way things are Partition will happen all by itself,till someone has the guts to name it and call it a day...It doesn't matter who makes the call first,if one side makes an official call/demand,this will set the ball rolling to its inevitable end...But for that we need leaders with balls. Not the wimps who ponder to their people's unthinking nationalism,racism and deep-rooted fear of "the other"...

[zan]

am reading this as I go along Bir so I cannot see the comments that follow as yet but I want to comment on this post.

The story has been fantastic and the ending disappointing on two counts. First of all it reminds me of all those exams at school when I wrote some fantastic stories only to ruin them by running out of time and finishing off without saying all the things I wanted to say.....Which seems to be the case here.

The second is the snipe you once again took at the TRNC/KKTC....again...a place that you never visited but feel that you have the right to comment on in a negative and uninformed way.......Shame really.



On another point....Why do you and your TCB feel the need to hide his identity...... ........If I had my doubts at the beginning it soon faded away with the irrepressible need of Kifeas to boast, in a round about way, about his ability to multitask at the wheel...........I do understand the need not to be associated with this man but you sounded so proud???

I am sorry the ending has disappointed you,Zan.
Perhaps,subconsciously, I was taking your advice and keeping the rest for the book...

I have visited the trnc in the past,Zan,on numerous ocassions. And I have family and friends there who keep me informed on what's going on. I know we do not agree on this point but I will say it again. I see what is happening in the North as a disaster...Ethnic cleansing with full participation of those who are being cleansed. Those who live there cannot be blamed,for there is very little they can say or do,to resist the overwhelming pressure put on them both from Turkey and from the ROC. But we in the dispora are fortunate enough to have the voice and the opportunity to speak for those who have been taken hostage by nationalism,racism an bigotry...And I am not only talking about Cypriots in the North. A fair and lasting solution can only come from the people themselves. People who put the love of their homeland and their own Cypriotness ahead of any other considerations. People who will take the lessons of the past on board,and find the courage and the will to take their fate in their own hands...Not by people who bury their heads in sand,and keep repeating the old slogans full of hatred,bigotry and racism.Again I am talking about people on both sides of the Greenline...

On your last point...I have no problems disclosing the identity of my TCB.
I am respecting his wishes not to be named on the forum...And yes I am proud to know him. He is an intelligent and most passionate man, one who feels deeply about the injustices, past and present, purpetrated on his people and country. He is a most humane person who has no personal animosity towards his fellow Cypriots who understand and respect the pain he and his people are going through...I am happy and proud to call him my True Cypriot Brother...

A great dream Bir but still you are only stating the obvious without the political remedy. This romantic dream that the world will be put right by the people and not politics is rubbish...If you don't mind me saying. That would mean a revolution and more blood shed and then electing more politicians when the time comes...If you are talking about electing the right leaders in the first place, then.....Hallo....What have I been saying for the last two years??????

The problem with moving on is the fact that we have had our history changed and that is something that I do not like.........

I have ben stating the political remedy too,Zan,for donks.
Mine is very simple. We return to to the only agreement we have,and the only constitution we have,and learning the lessons of the past we have another go at creating one multiethnic nation ...This time we kiss goodbye to our tragic mistakes of Enosis and Taksim,and realise that united we stand,divided others stand on our heads...How do we go there from where we are??? Not by revolution. But by finding and electing leaders who are going to lead,instead of follow where their voters want to go. And by using the internationally valid arguments to take our rightful place in our country's republic. For me this is the only way forward left to the people of Cyprus. The way things are we will never agree to any BBF or any Con-Federation,or even to any Partition. The way things are Partition will happen all by itself,till someone has the guts to name it and call it a day...It doesn't matter who makes the call first,if one side makes an official call/demand,this will set the ball rolling to its inevitable end...But for that we need leaders with balls. Not the wimps who ponder to their people's unthinking nationalism,racism and deep-rooted fear of "the other"...

And I have been touting that for you for some time now and......Nothing!!!!

There is not a single GC here hat wants that to happen without some changes and if there are to be changes then we want changes as well and so it goes on........We arrive at this day...The day of reality........The day when we need to look forward and see that the dream you have...Although a noble one....Is not going to happen. The wimps ....or as I like to call them...The practical people want to move on and look forward to reunification in the future. To stop reaching for the moon and ruining the possibility of real peace. The possibility that it is best to live apart for now and make those bridges more stable and wanted rather than dragging our feet over wobbly threads of dreams...........Not that way...Then lets try this way should be the cry. A line that sticks in my head from the book "Kings of Peace. Pawns of War" is the criticism of Tpap for trying to win this on a legal basis rather than a political one. What a profound statement!!!!!Politics winning he day??????

[BirKibrisli]

And I have been touting that for you for some time now and......Nothing!!!!

There is not a single GC here hat wants that to happen without some changes and if there are to be changes then we want changes as well and so it goes on........We arrive at this day...The day of reality........The day when we need to look forward and see that the dream you have...Although a noble one....Is not going to happen. The wimps ....or as I like to call them...The practical people want to move on and look forward to reunification in the future. To stop reaching for the moon and ruining the possibility of real peace. The possibility that it is best to live apart for now and make those bridges more stable and wanted rather than dragging our feet over wobbly threads of dreams...........Not that way...Then lets try this way should be the cry. A line that sticks in my head from the book "Kings of Peace. Pawns of War" is the criticism of Tpap for trying to win this on a legal basis rather than a political one. What a profound statement!!!!!Politics winning he day??????

Zan...If there is no reunification now,there will never be one.
What you are suggesting is to give up on the dream,and accept the status quo. For you and many others,the status quo (de facto Partition)is perfectly acceptable if not preferable. For me it is the death of our community. We need not wait to be invited to return. Papadopoulos is sitting where he is because of the 1960 constitution of the Republic of Cyprus. That constitution has not changed and it cannot be changed without TC acceptance. Talat can solve this problem in one week,if he abolishes the trnc and demands to return to the Republic. But that cannot happen of course because Talat is only the puppet as we all know. The puppet-master has other ideas for Cyprus and the TC community...Mine is a voice in wilderness,Zan...I will keep warning of the dangers of the status quo and the inevitable Partition. That is all I can do. Giving up on the dream of reunification is not an option for me. I wish it was,my life would be a lot easier...

[Piratis]

And I have been touting that for you for some time now and......Nothing!!!!

There is not a single GC here hat wants that to happen without some changes and if there are to be changes then we want changes as well and so it goes on

The reason there is Noting is because the Turkish side doesn't even want to hear about it. Whenever some people propose it in debates here, the argument against it is that such thing is not feasible because Turkey and the TCs do not accept it. And that is the truth. TCs and Turkey would accept nothing short of partition, or even better a disguised partition like Annan plan. For TCs a disguised partition is even better than "clean" partition because in that way they would get directly in EU and have financial benefits, while for Turkey and the UK a disguised partition is better because in that way there would be no Greek Cypriot state with an international representation to cause to them problems in EU and the UN (in the case of Turkey) or create problems against their bases (in the case of UK).

So when Turkey will accept nothing short of partition or disguised partition which would be even better for them and even worst for us, it is redicoulous to tell me that the reason we do not return to legality is because GCs don't want to.

So there is no question whether we would accept to return to the 1960 agreements. We would - period.

Yes we would want some changes, in the same way you are entitled to want changes also. One thing is to want and to propose changes, and another thing is to try to illegally enforce what you want.

So maybe we would challenge that 30% of governmental positions that is given to the TC community as being discriminatory, in the same way you can challenge as discriminatory the fact that a TC can not elect or be elected a president. Making such reforms is called progress and I doubt there is any country that has not changed anything in its constitution since the day it was created. As long as the reforms are made in the right direction with legal means there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.