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Cyprus is pregnant to very much surprise next year.

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Kifeas » Sat Dec 01, 2007 8:50 am

Bananiot wrote:So naive. Do you think Papadopoulos fell into deep depression because Talat was not cooperating? Papadopoulos fought hard to get a "no" vote because he hated the philosophy of the plan, that is, BBF. He has rejected seven plans in his long career, all of which were miles better than the last one. Did you expect him to accept a plan that provided for the two communities to share the country as equal partners? The question everyone should be asking is "what does Papadopoulos really want"?

Back in 2003 he tricked AKEL to put him in the top position by declaring openly that if he was elected President he would work on solving the Cyprus issue on the basis of the Annan Plan No. 3 which he accepted and he would negotiate it to better it. He did everything possible to make it worse so that he could ask for a loud "no". This proves that the man is against any compromise solution.

Papadopoulos has always been a proponent of "clean" solutions. He would rather have half a Cyprus that would be totally Greek than a whole Cyprus with the Turkish Cypriots achieving equal political status as a community. Because he does not have the clout, political and military, to achieve his goals, he is heading for disaster and this is why he will lose the elections in February, because the people have begun to understand him better and are not willing to go down the drain with him.


Banana, at least when you use terms and concepts, make sure you understand their implication and how they relate to the issue! You say the philosophy of the plan was that of a BBF! Nonsense! BBF is not a (the) philosophy! This has already been agreed back in 1977, and is not a "philosophy!" BBF is the supposed (hypothetical) end result! It is the outcome or the conclusion, if we assume that the plan was indeed that of a BBF! When we talk about the “philosophy” of the plan, we only mean the sum of all the underlying assumptions we make as to how we get to the outcome! It is the set of considerations that one takes into account, based on which to formulate the end result, i.e. the final product! Part of the “philosophy” of the plan would be for example whether the new state of affairs will emerge as an evolution (a continuation) of the RoC, from a unitary bi-communal state into a federal and a bi-communal one; or whether it will emerge through a "virgin birth" approach on the basis of “two equal founding states under the roof of federation," as Talat stipulates in the above SABAH article! This is what we mean by referring to the “philosophy” of the plan, and in that sense, Annan plan 5 had only one philosophy, that of endless and very dangerous “constructive ambiguities” (read destructive ambiguities!) Yes, the "philosophy" of the failed A-plan had a name that was called “constructive ambiguity,” that is how and why the Turkish side came up with that despicable “constitution” for the so-called TC Constituent State!

Philosophy in this case, is not the "where do we get to," but the "how do we get to" somewhere, i.e. what methods, assumptions, techniques, tactics and strategies do we use, and more importantly, why do we choose these and not some others!
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Postby Nikitas » Sat Dec 01, 2007 5:44 pm

Zan wrote:

"Turkish Cypriots are being discriminated against right now and have been ever since entry into the EU...How do you explain that???"


Simple- Talat expressly excluded the occupied area from the EU legal order, the Acquis Communautaire. His choice meant no application of EU rules, no duties no rights. YOu cannot enjoy the benefits and not shoulder the responsibilities, that is how the EU works. You should know, you live there.
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Postby zan » Sat Dec 01, 2007 6:02 pm

Nikitas wrote:Zan wrote:

"Turkish Cypriots are being discriminated against right now and have been ever since entry into the EU...How do you explain that???"


Simple- Talat expressly excluded the occupied area from the EU legal order, the Acquis Communautaire. His choice meant no application of EU rules, no duties no rights. YOu cannot enjoy the benefits and not shoulder the responsibilities, that is how the EU works. You should know, you live there.


Really!!! Then you should ask Tpap to recognise the border then :wink:
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Postby Bananiot » Sat Dec 01, 2007 6:45 pm

Kifeas, you have forgotten to translate your insult into English but, never mind, if you do not feel like it you do not have to. As I said, you can find someone else to insult you, I most certainly will not do you the favour, in any language.

Kifeas wrote

Banana, at least when you use terms and concepts, make sure you understand their implication and how they relate to the issue! You say the philosophy of the plan was that of a BBF! Nonsense! BBF is not a (the) philosophy! This has already been agreed back in 1977, and is not a "philosophy!" BBF is the supposed (hypothetical) end result! It is the outcome or the conclusion, if we assume that the plan was indeed that of a BBF! When we talk about the “philosophy” of the plan, we only mean the sum of all the underlying assumptions we make as to how we get to the outcome! It is the set of considerations that one takes into account, based on which to formulate the end result, i.e. the final product! Part of the “philosophy” of the plan would be for example whether the new state of affairs will emerge as an evolution (a continuation) of the RoC, from a unitary bi-communal state into a federal and a bi-communal one; or whether it will emerge through a "virgin birth" approach on the basis of “two equal founding states under the roof of federation," as Talat stipulates in the above SABAH article! This is what we mean by referring to the “philosophy” of the plan, and in that sense, Annan plan 5 had only one philosophy, that of endless and very dangerous “constructive ambiguities” (read destructive ambiguities!) Yes, the "philosophy" of the failed A-plan had a name that was called “constructive ambiguity,” that is how and why the Turkish side came up with that despicable “constitution” for the so-called TC Constituent State!

Philosophy in this case, is not the "where do we get to," but the "how do we get to" somewhere, i.e. what methods, assumptions, techniques, tactics and strategies do we use, and more importantly, why do we choose these and not some others!


Well well, we are now hearing everything! BBF (or any potential solution plan) is not based on a philosophy but rather, philosophy, is how we get to the final act, according to Kifeas. This of course is putting the cart in front of the horse but it appears that Kifeas probably has an axe to grind with Papadopoulos who declared on October 3 2004: "This solution will necessarily be sought within the framework, parameters and philosophy of the Annan Plan".

Unbelievable, even Papadopoulos seems to think that BBF is philosophy. Kifeas is such a "graphic" character these days ...
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Postby MR-from-NG » Sat Dec 01, 2007 6:51 pm

Kifeas, Nikitas, Piasrtist, sotos etc, etc. The Cyprus problem is solved, its the end. 2008 is the year of the TC. All you guys are doing is rearranging the deck-chairs on the Titanic.
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Postby zan » Sat Dec 01, 2007 6:52 pm

Well at least it explains why we are getting nowhere with the Cyprus problem in Kifeas' terms Bananiot. :wink: :lol: :lol:
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Postby zan » Sat Dec 01, 2007 6:53 pm

MR-from-NG wrote:Kifeas, Nikitas, Piasrtist, sotos etc, etc. The Cyprus problem is solved, its the end. 2008 is the year of the TC. All you guys are doing is rearranging the deck-chairs on the Titanic.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Postby paaul12 » Sat Dec 01, 2007 7:06 pm

Kifeas, you are what Ian Paisley was to Northern Ireland a big mouth bigot, but even Paisley had to face his own fears and sit down with Sinn Fein and accept them as equals, it happens all over the world, it will happen in Palestine, it will happen for the TRNC, when will your day come?


Interviewed on the Westminster Hour last night (it starts about 11 minutes into the audio clip), Mr Ancram was asked about Hamas's desire for the destruction of Israel. He replied:

Hamas has that written into its charter but then again ... the IRA's charter was the driving out of the British jurisdiction from the island of Ireland. If you started by saying 'Until you withdraw from that there is no dialogue' we would never have got anywhere in Northern Ireland ...

If you're going to get a two-state solution with a viable, autonomous Palestine there is no way that that Palestinian state can be created without some involvement by Hamas - they are a significant part of the political structure of Palestine. You can't exclude them, you can't say you're going to do it without them, because you're not going to get there ...

One of the sadnesses of history - I've seen it so many times, including to an extent ourselves in Northern Ireland - is where you say 'I'm not going to talk to these people because they're terrorists'. We did it in our own history in Cyprus, we did it in Kenya. Eventually you do talk to them, eventually they become part of the political solution and you look back and say: 'Why didn't we start talking to them earlier?'



By the way how is the training going, are you still going to the gym :D :D
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Postby Piratis » Sat Dec 01, 2007 7:20 pm

You compare yourselves with Palestine? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

In fact it is exactly the opposite:
Palestinian territories are illegally occupied by Israel just like Turks illegally occupy north part of Cyprus.
Israel moved 10s of thousands of Settlers in the Palestinian territories in order to change the demographics of those areas. Thats exactly what Turkey does in Cyprus.

So you, the aggressors, don't try to present yourselves as the victims.
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Postby Kifeas » Sat Dec 01, 2007 7:24 pm

Bananiot wrote:Kifeas, you have forgotten to translate your insult into English but, never mind, if you do not feel like it you do not have to. As I said, you can find someone else to insult you, I most certainly will not do you the favour, in any language.

Kifeas wrote

Banana, at least when you use terms and concepts, make sure you understand their implication and how they relate to the issue! You say the philosophy of the plan was that of a BBF! Nonsense! BBF is not a (the) philosophy! This has already been agreed back in 1977, and is not a "philosophy!" BBF is the supposed (hypothetical) end result! It is the outcome or the conclusion, if we assume that the plan was indeed that of a BBF! When we talk about the “philosophy” of the plan, we only mean the sum of all the underlying assumptions we make as to how we get to the outcome! It is the set of considerations that one takes into account, based on which to formulate the end result, i.e. the final product! Part of the “philosophy” of the plan would be for example whether the new state of affairs will emerge as an evolution (a continuation) of the RoC, from a unitary bi-communal state into a federal and a bi-communal one; or whether it will emerge through a "virgin birth" approach on the basis of “two equal founding states under the roof of federation," as Talat stipulates in the above SABAH article! This is what we mean by referring to the “philosophy” of the plan, and in that sense, Annan plan 5 had only one philosophy, that of endless and very dangerous “constructive ambiguities” (read destructive ambiguities!) Yes, the "philosophy" of the failed A-plan had a name that was called “constructive ambiguity,” that is how and why the Turkish side came up with that despicable “constitution” for the so-called TC Constituent State!

Philosophy in this case, is not the "where do we get to," but the "how do we get to" somewhere, i.e. what methods, assumptions, techniques, tactics and strategies do we use, and more importantly, why do we choose these and not some others!


Well well, we are now hearing everything! BBF (or any potential solution plan) is not based on a philosophy but rather, philosophy, is how we get to the final act, according to Kifeas. This of course is putting the cart in front of the horse but it appears that Kifeas probably has an axe to grind with Papadopoulos who declared on October 3 2004: "This solution will necessarily be sought within the framework, parameters and philosophy of the Annan Plan".

Unbelievable, even Papadopoulos seems to think that BBF is philosophy. Kifeas is such a "graphic" character these days ...


That we disagree on so many grounds and levels is no news to anyone in this forum! Unfortunately I now have to have my doubts about your IQ as well! That a BBF (bi-zonal and bi-communal federation) is not a form or a type of a (sui generis) political and a government regime, but a philosophy instead, I never though I would have ever heard from anyone, set aside from you!
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