Cyprus-Forum.com

[turkcyp]

deleted by the author...

[turkcyp]

deleted by the author...

[Saint Jimmy]

I agree with everything else, but I have questions on these two points (in the context of your post):

almost everything would have been fixed in favour of bots sides.

No, that solution would only work out in favour of Turkey and TCs. GCs would only have lost (around 20% of the RoC's land), and gained what? Effective control of the country? They had that, already!

In my opinion jimmy, if Turkey had captured %18 of the land; she would have directly been accused of partitioning the Island and creating a pure TC state on North of the Island that around %80 of the land didn't belong to TCs.

Is she not directly accused of that, today? At least, until mid-2004?

Returning to the original issue, this analysis of yours tells me that you agree: this problem is a land-for-rights/protection one (in the most ridiculous simplification). So, how can you advocate TCs' getting the rights without giving the land?

[BigDutch]

So do you think if the rest of the world isolated both north and south Cyprus economicaly and equally until they both agree a settlement this would also help renuinfication or do you think that this kind of pressure should only apply to TC side?

That is not the "defacto" situation though today. 40 years ago if that had happened then who knows ?

Being forced into accepting the GC only run 'RoC' is totaly submission for the TC. You might not as an 'outsider' understand this but every TC and many more besides do understand it.

What the TC are not interested in and have never been interested in , is having their ability to trade controlled by the "RoC" (ie the post 63 RoC that is a totaly GC run administration and in violation of the consitituion). Offer us co operation based on control by a pre 63 type of 'RoC' and you will find us most amenable I suspect.

The thing is this. Negotiations take time (as i`m sure we are all aware), and in Cyprus they take twice as long . The negotiations required to get to a "pre 63 type of 'RoC'" that will make everyone happy will take a long time. Whilst this time ticks away everyone would appreciate "confidence building measures". The problem is, it would appear, the "TC's" want the political bit sorted before the confidence building measures are accepted. So if no confidence building measures "work" then will there be success in negotiation whilst each side sits blaming the other one. Something has to give. RoC have offered measures.

A solution based on one side being able to force the other side into agreement rather than them actualy accepting the agreement on it's merits.

If anyone feels forced into anything then it will never last.

If you believe that economic sanctions on the TRNC will help speed a settlement can you explain to me why you are not advocating the same for the 'RoC' ?

The sanctions are there for the simple reason that the world sees "North Cyprus" as occupied land of RoC and whilst 1-in-5 in North Cyprus is a Turkish soldier then i am 100% behind it. However I will also put myself 100% behind any measures that will assist TC's as long as they go through the RoC.

[Saint Jimmy]

This is the strategy that EU and the rest of the world has been applying this giving stick (isolations and inherently lower wealth) to TC side and carrot (EU membership and non isolations and inherently higher wealth) to GC side.(even Turkey was doing this but carrot and stick was going the other way around. This way of solving disputes can only solve the problems one sided and therefore there will always be a resentment on how the solution is achieved, and one side will always be feeling used.

I disagree. The strategy that has been applied all these years was the stick-stick one. GCs got the stick in 1974 (by Turkey) and the international community countered that stick by the respective subsequent stick to the TRNC (which you translate as the carrot to GCs).
As for your assertion that 'this way of settling disputes can only solve problems one-sided', all I can say is ! I mean, if someone is complaining of that, it's 76% of GCs (of which I am not one), not TCs (who have been the victims of the stick strategy, etc.).
Do you see the flaw in the theory?

[turkcyp]

deleted by the author...

[insan]

I agree with everything else, but I have questions on these two points (in the context of your post):

No, that solution would only work out in favour of Turkey and TCs. GCs would only have lost (around 20% of the RoC's land), and gained what? Effective control of the country? They had that, already!

Jimmy, if you assume that GCs would only have lost around %20 of the RoC's land, TCs also could make the same assumption. We would have gained nothing because instead of occupying %36 of the land we would have been occupying %20 of the RoC's land according to international treaties and land ownership. what's the difference of occupying any percentage of land of RoC and what's the difference of occupying less properties belong to GCs according to international agreements, treaties, GC administration and GC community. I told you that core of the problem wouldn't have changed. If it constitutes a kind of gain; the only gain would have been less number of refugees(around half of the current) and less amount of occupied land(around half of the current). Who gained what?

Returning to the original issue, this analysis of yours tells me that you agree: this problem is a land-for-rights/protection one (in the most ridiculous simplification). So, how can you advocate TCs' getting the rights without giving the land?

Jimmy you are missing the whole point I'm exerting great effort to put across. The issue is violation of international treaties, agreements and human rights as a consequence of 11 years lasted intercommunal strife, Coup D'etat and Greek attempt to invade Cyprus for annexation with Greece. After the intervention of 1974, bots sides agreed upon to end the violations by establishing a new united Cyprus based upon bi-communal, bi-zonal federation including "political equality" of two communities, returning a certain amount of land and return of certain number of refugees.

[erolz]

The thing is this. Negotiations take time (as i`m sure we are all aware), and in Cyprus they take twice as long . The negotiations required to get to a "pre 63 type of 'RoC'" that will make everyone happy will take a long time. Whilst this time ticks away everyone would appreciate "confidence building measures". The problem is, it would appear, the "TC's" want the political bit sorted before the confidence building measures are accepted. So if no confidence building measures "work" then will there be success in negotiation whilst each side sits blaming the other one. Something has to give. RoC have offered measures.

Confidence building measures that require TC to recognise the 'RoC' (solely GC run RoC) as the sole legitimate government of all of Cyprus and all it's people are not confidence building measures at all - at least as far as TC see things.

The sanctions are there for the simple reason that the world sees "North Cyprus" as occupied land of RoC and whilst 1-in-5 in North Cyprus is a Turkish soldier then i am 100% behind it. However I will also put myself 100% behind any measures that will assist TC's as long as they go through the RoC.

Well your argument seemd to be that sanctions should remain because (one sided) sacntions would improve the chances of an agreed settlement.

The fact is (as I see things at least) that attiudes towards the TRNC are changing. Slowly perhaps. With rhetoric more than action perhaps but they are changing. You cannot argue that sanctions are there because the rest of the world has put them there and then 'complain' when the rest of the world choses to ease these restrictions. If you argument is that sanctions are necessary to speed us to a solution then my reply is that one sided sanctions only speed a one sided soultipon.

[metecyp]

Confidence building measures that require TC to recognise the 'RoC' (solely GC run RoC) as the sole legitimate government of all of Cyprus and all it's people are not confidence building measures at all - at least as far as TC see things.

The main flaw in BigDutch's argument is that he considers the structure in the south as the RoC which was agreed by TCs and GCs back in 1959. It might look like it, it might smell like it but it ain't the RoC Now don't start telling me that the whole world says it's the only legal government of the island, and blah blah. The fact is GCs have been running the RoC on their own for 40 years now and TCs are not going to accept the injustice of 40 years by recognising the GC dominated RoC as the legal government of the island.

I agree that confidence measures is the way to go but no confidence measures should involve recognition of TRNC or RoC.

[insan]

The sanctions are there for the simple reason that the world sees "North Cyprus" as occupied land of RoC and whilst 1-in-5 in North Cyprus is a Turkish soldier then i am 100% behind it. However I will also put myself 100% behind any measures that will assist TC's as long as they go through the RoC.

The circumstances of particularly between 20th of July 1974 - 16th of August 1974 and events prior to 20th of July 1974 gave direction to Turkey to occupy a part of RoCs land. I don't think they calculated the percentage of land before or during the intervention. Turkish side have never claimed we went on war and in the end we captured %36 of the Island from now on %36 of the land belongs to us. To the contrary of this Turkish side agreed to return a ceratin amount of land back to GC administration, return of certain number of GC refugees, exchange the certain amount of properties and reunification under a bi-zonal, bi-communal federation based upon "political equality" of two communities. Under the circumstances of mid 70s noone had expected the problem would last 30 years. Therefore under the defacto situation of mid-70s, whole world kept recognizing the "RoC" and TC leadership as two defacto entities. Until the problem is resolved as it is envisaged in UN resolutions, this defacto situation will continue. But I don't think this defacto situation is viable anymore. If GC leadership keep maintaining its negative stance; there's no doubt the next offer of UN will be the partition of the Island. And UN will offer partition upon the request of vast majority of TCs who don't want to wait under inhumane embargos anymore.

If things go like this soon TCs altogether will revolt against Tassos' stance and will shout "either reunification or partition."