Cyprus-Forum.com

[Nikitas]

Alexiss,

One mistake made by Cypriots was that they did not understand the duties and obligations of a truly indpendent nation state. So they allowed their army to be officered by a foreign power. That was a mistake. No matter how friendly another country is, its officers swear allegiance to it, not to the country that acts as their second employer. If you do not control your army you are not a truly independent nation.

Independence is a state of mind and we simply did not have it before 1974. One good thing that we learned in 1974 is the duty and work needed to be and stay independent. We have some more lessons to go before we complete the course but we are getting there. The course will be complete when the Turkish Cypriots also learn similar lessons.

[alexISS]

THe Cypriot air force is in fact Greek. Precisely, so we expect some show of force when Turkish jets overfly the free areas. We are not getting it. Jets are not permanently stationed in Cyprus, they come over now and again.

Having bases that they can use in Cyprus is more than enough, Nikitas. There's absolutely no need for F-15s to defend Cyprus. As for the force show "requirement", there are dogfights between Greek and Turkish fighters over Cyprus all the time, especially during Greek military excercises.

F-15s would provide a permanent capability to protect Cyprus and beyond at all times. F 16s do not have the range, at least that is what air force officers themselves say.

Again, F15s are only necessary when operating from afar. In the case of a conflict, the operations' base would have to be Cyprus anyway.

In addition, there has not been a commercial ferry service between Greece and Cyprus for years, which means diminished Greek presence in the sea between Rhodos and Limassol. This link should have been active if not daily then at least twice weekly even if it meant paying taxpayer money to keep it up. EU citizens wanting ot travel to Cyprus by sea must resort to going to Turkey and taking the ferry from Mersin. The political and strategic repercussions are self evident, especially if you consider that Greece is the major merchant sea power in Europe and on of the top three in the world. This is what I mean by "bakalistiko" approach.

And why should Greece link Rhodes with Cyprus and not Cyprus itself?

[EPSILON]

THe Cypriot air force is in fact Greek. Precisely, so we expect some show of force when Turkish jets overfly the free areas. We are not getting it. Jets are not permanently stationed in Cyprus, they come over now and again.

F-15s would provide a permanent capability to protect Cyprus and beyond at all times. F 16s do not have the range, at least that is what air force officers themselves say.

In addition, there has not been a commercial ferry service between Greece and Cyprus for years, which means diminished Greek presence in the sea between Rhodos and Limassol. This link should have been active if not daily then at least twice weekly even if it meant paying taxpayer money to keep it up. EU citizens wanting ot travel to Cyprus by sea must resort to going to Turkey and taking the ferry from Mersin. The political and strategic repercussions are self evident, especially if you consider that Greece is the major merchant sea power in Europe and on of the top three in the world. This is what I mean by "bakalistiko" approach.

Simple question.Why Greece to do that: As you said you are Cypriots and we are Greeks!!!!

As for the liabilities- A democratic elected Greek government sent the 10 thousand Greek soldiers to Cyprus,when Turks made a sheet than to invate,and a Junta rejime ,with help of some local ideas like yours, withdraw the army!!!

[alexISS]

Nikitas, a few posts back you said that the coup was not just the junta's fault, but it was Greece's fault. I'll ask again, can you be more specific? What did you mean by saying "Greece's fault"? Who was "Greece" at the time? Me? My family? My neighbours? Who's fault was it?

[alexISS]

Alexiss,

One mistake made by Cypriots was that they did not understand the duties and obligations of a truly indpendent nation state. So they allowed their army to be officered by a foreign power. That was a mistake. No matter how friendly another country is, its officers swear allegiance to it, not to the country that acts as their second employer. If you do not control your army you are not a truly independent nation.

Independence is a state of mind and we simply did not have it before 1974. One good thing that we learned in 1974 is the duty and work needed to be and stay independent. We have some more lessons to go before we complete the course but we are getting there. The course will be complete when the Turkish Cypriots also learn similar lessons.

You are simply making excuses, Nikitas, when you say that the Cypriots were simply "inexperienced" and that was their only fault, while evil "Greece", not the Junta, was plotting against your country. I'll say it again: Before the Junta, Greece was the only voice of reason in Cyprus, when all the Cypriots wanted was Enosis

[EPSILON]

Nikitas, a few posts back you said that the coup was not just the junta's fault, but it was Greece's fault. I'll ask again, can you be more specific? What did you mean by saying "Greece's fault"? Who was "Greece" at the time? Me? My family? My neighbours? Who's fault was it?

EOKA B was staffed by several Greeks ex Mainland (belonging to Junta regime) but the majority of its members were Greek Cypriots-not Greeks ex mainland.

The peole like Nikitas can not even imagine the feeling of the simple Grek citizens for the disaster in Cyprus.

The today's question of mainland Greeks to G Cypriots is very simple: what you really want? Do you know what do you want? Do not tell me independance in a peacfull state with Tcs since you have to take into account the shelters and top of all the invasion army who will be the most important part in a solution on your direction.

[Nikitas]

Nations take responsibility for what they do regardless of the governments in power. See Germany and reparations after WWII. Greece has no problem accepting other rights and duties incurred during the Junta. The only thing steadfastly refused is the coup in Cyprus.

OK, if the coup on Cyprus is to be attributed to some people let us know who they are and what they did. But the Cyprus file is closed because opening it would be detrimental to the national interest. We can guess why.

But if you refuse to name those responsible, and to punish them then you shoulder responsibility. One example- the chief of the Cyprus National Guard during the invasion, Brigadier Georgitsis, has not been asked to reveal what happened during his command, was not punished, he was retired with full pay and opened a factory in Thessaloniki. Presumably his actions were silently approved.

If Greece is not responsible and obliged to make some amends then who is? Is this going to be another of those international fuckups where no one is responsible?

[Nikitas]

Epsilon,

The settlers and the invasion army, as well as the future relationship with Turkey is very much in the fore of all Cypriots' thinking about the future. We also know that these problems cannot be solved by anyone other than Cypriots themselves. It is no longer possible to rely on Greece. Not becaue Greece is not to be trusted, but because being independent means solving problems on your own.

[alexISS]

Nations take responsibility for what they do regardless of the governments in power. See Germany and reparations after WWII. Greece has no problem accepting other rights and duties incurred during the Junta. The only thing steadfastly refused is the coup in Cyprus.

OK, if the coup on Cyprus is to be attributed to some people let us know who they are and what they did. But the Cyprus file is closed because opening it would be detrimental to the national interest. We can guess why.

But if you refuse to name those responsible, and to punish them then you shoulder responsibility. One example- the chief of the Cyprus National Guard during the invasion, Brigadier Georgitsis, has not been asked to reveal what happened during his command, was not punished, he was retired with full pay and opened a factory in Thessaloniki. Presumably his actions were silently approved.

If Greece is not responsible and obliged to make some amends then who is? Is this going to be another of those international fuckups where no one is responsible?

Why do you have to drag me to an endless debate by continiously posting new arguments? I've answered your questions one by one, and instead of either accepting or countering my replies you post something else. The Nazi party was properly elected in Germany, the German people were fully aware of its aspirations and dogmata when they voted for them. That's quite different to the case of Greece, don't you think?

So, I'll ask yet one more time. Who was "Greece" who, according to you, is to blame for the coup? The Greek people?

[Nikitas]

SO we come to the conclusion that the Junta did it. Post Junta Greece is not responsible in any way. OK, the signal this approach sends to Cypriots is that they are alone in facing a nation of 80 million, and its fully NATO equipped army. Which is OK too, if the situation was clarified for all and everyone knew the score. The problem is we are not allowed to know the score. The National Guard is still Greek dominated, presumably to keep Cyprus under control and not allow a long term liberation strategy to be implemented. So Greece is involved as a policeman to keep us in check, as always, and not to kick out the invader, who plans to take over the whole island, as always.