Cyprus-Forum.com

[humanist]

Your welcome, VP. I call it for what it is. Another thing thta you said and I agree Turkish speaking Cypriots have progressed. I was very impressed by the infrastructure, the universities are amazing places for learning and Kyrenia has some nice hotels and homes. In a United Cyprus they Turkish speaking community will bring its share of resources, as it should.

Guys we cannot deny the fact that there is progress in the occupied areas of Cyprus. Whether it is aid money from Turkey or whatever the progress is there. If Turkey is willing to finance it so let it be. In my view it would be more beneficial for all concerned if Turkey went for a settlement, instead. In the mean time it can pay for all that is happenning in the occupied territory.

[Nikitas]

Tim,

The 1960 constitution provided guarantees to the Turkish Cypriots, but not full equality on the communal level as is being claimed today. And naturally there was no biregionality.

After 1974, with the imposed separation of the two communities, something in which Britain actively contributed by collecting and then transporting people to the occupied area, it was impossible to apply the provisions of the constitution, since the Turkish Cypriots were simply not there to fill the seats in parliament or provide a vice president. The adaptation of the constitution to the circumstances was unavoidable and that was not due to any fault of the RoC. . As far as I know there have been no amendments passed other than those imposed by EU accession. Only yesterday I saw on RIK TV that the demands of the other minorities, (Armenians, Latins and Maronites) for parliamentary seats were refused precisely because there can be no amendments to the 1960 constitution's basic provisions.

Demanding of the RoC to fulfill each and every requirement of the 1960 constitution, while the occupation is still in place and the two communities physically separated, is tantamount to extinguishing the Greek Cypriot community on the island. If we apply this logic and if it is somehow enforced and we have a full reversion to the 1960 constitution with a Turkish Cypriot Vice President, full allocation of Parliamentary seats, a 70 -30 share of civil service jobs, then what will be the status of the north and the TRNC government? What will be the satus of the occupation forces and their claim that the two communities cannot live together?

If people like Mr Akinci come to the south claiming their rights under the 1960 constitution, can the RoC then demand that they renounce all official positions in the north? If he does not, would his participation in the TRNC not be treason? At some point it must be understood that participating in a state involves rights and duties and it does require a minimum of allegiance and proof thereof. To reject this would involve rejecting the foundation of the nation state. I would love to hear an American reaction to that notion!

To go back to the practices of Europe post WWII, the people who remain in the TRNC after a reversion to the 1960 constitution, would then reasonably be seen as collaborators and be liable to penalties, just like the Vichy French. That is my reading of the situation.

[Tim Drayton]

Tim,

... precisely because there can be no amendments to the 1960 constitution's basic provisions.

Surely my point exactly. One of the most basic provisions of this constitution is that TCs elect the vice president and GCs elect the president. I am not necessarily saying this is a good practice, just that giving TCs votes in the presidential election is, as things stand, unconstitutional and it concerns me that this could have serious consequences in the future. I understand your arguments and appreciate that this decision, or the one to deny a group of TCs the right to contest the vacant Turkish seats in the House of Representatives last year, was not taken lightly and must have involved consultation with expert legal authorities. Let's just hope my fears prove groundless.

[Kifeas]

Nikitas,
There is a very paradoxical situation. On the one hand the RoC government derives its international legitimacy from the foundation agreements and the 1960 constitution. On the other hand, this constitution proved unworkable in practice. Some of its provisions are arguably also anachronistic in the multicultural Europe in which we now live. Then you have an invasion. To what extent are emergency measures or unilateral amendments justified? I am no expert in constitutional law, so I don't know.
However, I can't help feeling that it is very dangerous to make unilateral amendements to the basic principles of the constitution. One such core principle is bicommunality. Yes, Turkish Cypriots are voting for the president for the first time. The reason they are doing so for the first time is that, under the constitution, they are supposed to be electing the Turkish Cypriot Vice President. Where does this actually place Turkish Cypriots? If a small number of Turkish Cypriots residing in the south vote alongside Greek Cypriots in what are technically Greek Cypriot constituencies, then does ths not de facto turn them into a minority?
There is a saying about giving somebody enough rope to hang themselves. In 2006 a small number of Turkish Cypriots voted for candidates to fill Greek Cypriot places in the House of Representatives, and there was even one Turkish Cypriot candidate. This year they voted in elections to Greek Cypriot municipalities. Next year they will vote for the Greek Cypriot president.
I can't help wondering if the outside world will suddenly turn round and says, "Hold on. Why should we not recognise the TRNC? You have now turned the Turkish Cypriots living in the south into a minority. This flies in the face of the principle of bi-communality. Why, then, should the Turkish Cypriots not have their own government to represent them where they are in the majority?"
Perhaps I am wrong, but this thought has been at the back of my mind for some time.

Tim, most if not all the issues you raised above, have been tested and dealt with in the "Ibrahim Aziz vs. Cyprus" case in the ECtHR. I suggest you find the judgment in the case (it is somewhere on the internet,) and I believe most of your questions /concerns will be addressed!

Roughly speaking, it would have been inconceivable for the RoC to alone (unliterary) reinstate the Constitutional rights reserved for the TC community as a whole (as per 1960 constitution,) for just a couple of thousand TCs that currently live in the south; while at the same time the vast majority of the TC community lives in the north, "vote" and "become" elected under the "TRNC" "constitution" and its "elected" and recognised by the UN leadership not to be recognising the RoC, to be refusing its legality and sovereignty ,and to claim that they constitute a separate and independed state in the north! One cannot expect that a mere 2,000 TCs in the south will be holding the vice-presidency of the country with all its vetoes, plus 30% of the seats in the house of representatives and 30% of the civil service jobs, etc, etc!

[Tim Drayton]

Thanks Kifeas, I am looking at this.
If anybody is interested, here is the link to the Ibrahim Aziz vs Cyprus judgment:
http://www.echr.coe.int/eng/Press/2004/ ... 220604.htm

[Kifeas]

Thanks Kifeas, I am looking at this.
If anybody is interested, here is the link to the Ibrahim Aziz vs Cyprus judgment:
http://www.echr.coe.int/eng/Press/2004/ ... 220604.htm

No, that's not the full text of the judgment, but only a summary! One needs to find the full text!

[Viewpoint]

Kifeas how are your gym and shooting lessons going?

[Kifeas]

Kifeas how are your gym and shooting lessons going?

I was recently promoted to a trainer, but for the last 2 months I am busy with different kinds of sport activities and other more important things!

[Viewpoint]

Kifeas how are your gym and shooting lessons going?

I was recently promoted to a trainer, but for the last 2 months I am busy with different kinds of sport activities and other more important things!

I to followed your lead and started going to the gym, to counter your shooting lessons, I now have 2 guns in my home...just to counter your attack and have a chance of fighting back. That OK?

[Kikapu]

Kifeas how are your gym and shooting lessons going?

I was recently promoted to a trainer, but for the last 2 months I am busy with different kinds of sport activities and other more important things!

I to followed your lead and started going to the gym, to counter your shooting lessons, I now have 2 guns in my home...just to counter your attack and have a chance of fighting back. That OK?

Living in a "Animal Farm State" does have it's problems, doesn't VP, to be needing 2 guns.

Isn't the 40,000 Foreign Turkish Troops enough for your security, considering you have been telling us that you have been living in a "peaceful" existence for the last 33 years.!!!

Studies have shown in the States, that you are more likely to get injured or killed with your own gun than the one from an intruder. Most intruders are not armed with a gun, but they are as soon as they break into your home and arm them self with your own gun, and used against the owner.

You having 2 guns VP, stand to be a victim twice as much as if you had only one gun or no guns at all. So more is not necessarily better, just more chance of bad things happening to you.!!