The Best Cyprus Community

Skip to content


US changes position on Annan Plan

Propose and discuss specific solutions to aspects of the Cyprus Problem

Postby Viewpoint » Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:07 pm

Even though you say you are a man of peace (even peace through partition), you are pouring poison with your comments. I do not presume to "know your brain better than you do" - in fact, I frankly do not understand what it is you are trying to achieve with the way you respond.


Honesty, but out of my respect for your work and you as individual I will attempt to utilize more diplomatic language.

By responding with one-liners, as has become your habit of late, and in fact insulting and un-substantiated one-liners, you are not being at all constructive.


Hello the majority of contributors use one liners and expand on issues as and when necessary. Some of us dont need to write paragraph upon paragraph to express themselves, you of all people should know this.
User avatar
Viewpoint
Leading Contributor
Leading Contributor
 
Posts: 25214
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 2:48 pm
Location: Nicosia/Lefkosa

Postby Alexandros Lordos » Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:36 pm

insan wrote: TC community does not want to play this dirty game of GC leadership anymore.


Insan,

did you notice how you compared "TC community" against "GC leadership"? We tend to say the same thing, that the "GC community does not want to play the dirty game of the TC leadership anymore". Why do we speak like that?

"Communities" are composed of innocent civilians, what they ask for is generally to be respected. "Leaderships" are composed of lying, scheming and self-centred politicians, what they say is an obstacle to be overcome ... therefore, each side, in developing its rhetoric tends to present itself as an "innocent community" suffering at the hands of the "lying and scheming leadership of the other side". Of course, the motive behind such rhetoric is self-justification, and tends to lead nowhere.

I think one way to take the issue forward, is to recognise that there are four "players" involved here:

1. The GC community
2. The TC community
3. The GC (and Hellenic) leadership
4. The TC (and Turkish) leadership

It is true that the two communities are largely innocent, though not totally so: Extremists, fanatics, bigoted people are also members of the communities, though such people are usually the minority. The majority is usually well-meaning, though often ignorant of the concerns of the other side. This ignorance leads them to extreme positions, which sound similar to the positions of the fanatics but are actually not deeply held.

It is also true that the two leaderships tend to be "two-faced", because that is how politics work: They want everyone's votes, so they say whatever will please the audience. On the one hand, they want the glory of "being the one to solve the Cyprus Problem", on the other hand they fear the voters - and the history books - in case the solution they agree to turns out to be unpopular or, even worse, fails. Having said that, politicians tend to be pragmatic, more so than the people. They have more contact with the other side, and with the world at large, and are therefore aware of what is and what is not possible.

As for "maximum solution theses", I think communities and leaderships tend to share these: The GC side has the "maximum solution thesis" of "majority rule with a protected TC minority" while the TC side has the maximum solution thesis of "a two state solution with separate sovereignty". I think it is important to say that there is nothing inherently immoral or chauvinistic about either thesis: Both "majority rule with minority protection" and "separate ethnic states" are internationally accepted models of governance. The only thing wrong with them is that they are just not acceptable to the other side, and therefore not feasible options for attaining peace.

Now, how about the "compromise solution thesis" - i.e. a bizonal bicommunal Federation? Currently, it seems, the TC side (leadership and community) tends to accept this thesis, much more so than in the past, not least because it is being offered as a package which will also include the end of isolation and EU membership. GCs, on the other hand, tend to be more ambivalent: Now that the bizonal Federation thesis has been fleshed out (in the Annan Plan), many GCs (leadership and community) are finding it difficult to see how it is better than a simple two state solution. With a bizonal Federation, the way it has been expressed in the Annan Plan, GCs will still face many restrictions if they wish to live in the north, no less than if it was two separate states, but they will also have to tolerate a complicated system of governance, an inadequate system of defense, and the continuation of Turkey's role as a guarantor. The only real motive for a Greek Cypriot to vote in favor of the Annan Plan, even an ironed-out version of the Annan Plan, is just so that GCs and TCs can co-exist and co-operate more closely than they do now - and as we already know, no more than 20-25% of each side see co-existence as a primary motive for solving the Cyprus Problem. (How much was the "Yes" vote of GCs? 24% ?)

In this grander scheme of things, I don't think any particular individual is highly important. Denktash was pursuing a maximum solution thesis, but his own community, along with the international community, overruled him. The Annan Plan made sense to the TCs, and in this popular current Denktash was swept away. Tassos - you, Viewpoint and others are saying - is also pursuing a maximum solution thesis. I say, and some others along with me, that I am not really sure what he is pursuing. It doesn't matter either way. His political position is no less precarious than Denktash (and his health is worse). The moment a solution thesis is presented to the Greek Cypriots which satisfies their primary concerns (return of refugees, Turkey to leave Cyprus, Settlers to leave), they will sweep away "any Tassos" that might dare to stand in the way ...

The really tough question is: How do we reach such a solution thesis, a solution thesis that will actually inspire GCs, while not making the TCs turn away in revulsion? That's where the US "road map" comes in, and that's why I praise it as an intelligent policy. By calling on the GC leadership to prepare "a road map", it seems that the US is well aware of the dynamics of our current situation. The problem with just "asking for a list of changes", the way Annan has been doing, is that most probably the list will be instantly rejected by the TCs: Example: "We want another 20,000 settlers to leave", say the GCs. "No way" answer the TCs. "We do not want any Turkish troops to remain", say the GCs. "No way" answer the TCs. "We want all refugees to have the right of return", say the GCs. "No way", answer the TCs. How does such a methodology solve the Cyprus Problem? Instead, a "road map" might go as follows: "We are concerned about the issue of Settlers and wish to discuss this further with the TC leadership in order to reach a mutually acceptable compromise", or "We are concerned about the presence of Turkish troops and wish to further negotiate the issue of security with the Turkish Cypriots", or, "we are concerned about refugee rights and want to further discuss with the TCs ways in which the rights of current occupants and the rights of original owners might be balanced". Isn't such a road map a more promising avenue for solving the Cyprus problem, rather than just "tell me what changes you want"?

Sorry for rambling on, I wasn't sure what I was trying to say until I actually said it. :)
Alexandros Lordos
Contributor
Contributor
 
Posts: 987
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 8:41 pm

Postby Saint Jimmy » Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:54 pm

Alexandros Lordos wrote:Tassos - you, Viewpoint and others are saying - is also pursuing a maximum solution thesis. I say, and some others along with me, that I am not really sure what he is pursuing. It doesn't matter either way. His political position is no less precarious than Denktash (and his health is worse). The moment a solution thesis is presented to the Greek Cypriots which satisfies their primary concerns (return of refugees, Turkey to leave Cyprus, Settlers to leave), they will sweep away "any Tassos" that might dare to stand in the way ...

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Errmm, Alex, 'any Tassos' isn't likely to allow a solution thesis to develop that doesn't satisfy him, right? If he is the negotiator, and he doesn't agree to a solution plan that doesn't satisfy him, how is that solution plan going to get people to by-pass him?

As for the 'road-map' Vs. 'shopping list' distinction, allow me to remain in doubt. There really isn't much difference between the two - the language you used in defining T-Pap's possible 'road-map' issues could well be used in defining his 'shopping list' issues ('what changes he wants' doesn't necessarily mean 'what are his proposals concerning these changes'; rather, I think, it means 'what he would like changed'). It wouldn't have to be as blunt as you put it. I think the distinction is just a superficial matter of terminology. The real issue is whether T-Pap and his crew are willing to prepare anything helpful right now or in the near future - be it a 'road map', a 'shopping list', a 'call it what you will'.

I agree with the distinction between community Vs leadership, although I'm not sure whether the 'leadership' categorization should be GC (and Greek) and TC (and Turkish).
User avatar
Saint Jimmy
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor
 
Posts: 1067
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 1:29 pm
Location: Leeds, U.K.

Postby insan » Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:59 pm

Alexandros, you well said everything visible to every "ordinary" concerned party or indivudual. However, we should see the other side of the medallion as well.


On the other side of the medallion there's a sneaky plan based on "European solution" back in 1987. The time that consequently Denktash abandoned federation thesis and brought up confederation thesis.

Moreover, the core of the problem on the other side of the medallion is lying within the EU-Turkey-US-Greece-Cyprus axis.


The essentials of issue is not all about what you put forward above. We well know who created the Turkophobia. We well know the tools of Hellenic Ruling Elite which intentionally created in order to get the support of "ordinary" Hellenes for their interests which lay within the EU-Greece-US-Cyprus-Middle East axis. There's no Turkey and "politically equal" TC community in future plans of Greece-GC duo. Their only aim is working for the interests of Hellenism without turkey and TCs. According to the retrospection of Hellenic Ruling elite, Turkey and TCs are the enemies of Hellenism.

Thta's why I felt necessary to make a distinction between Hellenic Ruling Elite and the "ordinary Hellenes".
Last edited by insan on Fri Mar 25, 2005 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
insan
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 9044
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2003 11:33 pm
Location: Somewhere in ur network. ;]

Postby turkcyp » Fri Mar 25, 2005 5:05 pm

deleted by the author...
Last edited by turkcyp on Wed Aug 03, 2005 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
turkcyp
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor
 
Posts: 1117
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:40 am

Postby insan » Fri Mar 25, 2005 5:23 pm

But any Road map like it is employed in Israel will not achieve that.


turkcyp, be sure of that the road map policy of US for Cyprus won't be the same with the road map policy of US followed for the resolution of Israel-Plestanian dispute. First of all Palestine is not an US ally. Second the Israel-Palestine dispute have not much in common with Cyprus dispute. It is obvious that US wishes to undertake the mediation mission of Cyprus problem in this static situation.

Resolution of Cyprus problem is extremely important for US. If no solution is found in 6 to 9 months; cyprus problem will cause a big crash on EU-Turkey-US-Greece-Cyprus axis. It is obvious that this crash most probably will cause ireparable wounds on Turkey-EU-US-Greece-Cyprus axis. This is what US concerns about and try to do its best to improve the relations of its allies in East Mediterennean wing of the world.
User avatar
insan
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 9044
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2003 11:33 pm
Location: Somewhere in ur network. ;]

Postby turkcyp » Fri Mar 25, 2005 5:38 pm

deleted by the author...
Last edited by turkcyp on Wed Aug 03, 2005 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
turkcyp
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor
 
Posts: 1117
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:40 am

Postby Alexandros Lordos » Fri Mar 25, 2005 5:46 pm

Saint Jimmy wrote:Errmm, Alex, 'any Tassos' isn't likely to allow a solution thesis to develop that doesn't satisfy him, right? If he is the negotiator, and he doesn't agree to a solution plan that doesn't satisfy him, how is that solution plan going to get people to by-pass him?


Well, the Annan Plan appeared, and that didn't satisfy Denktash, even though he was the negotiator for the TCs ...

The UN could easily produce another Plan "for consideration" (not for referenda), without necessarily having Tassos' agreement, and that Plan could sweep him away, so long as it satisfied the primary GC concerns.

turkcyp wrote:I was so enjoying your post until I have read your support for a “Road Map”. The strategy of “Road Map” will never be accepted by the TCs. Because by its nature road maps, involves one party deciding, or mapping if you wish, what kind of road they want to walk on, declare that map and then later on say, that is what I will agree on, if you like it take it if not it is not my problem.


Well, if I remember the article, the Americans asked for GCs to prepare a roadmap for a plan that would satisfy GC concerns, without making the plan unacceptable to TCs ... - though I see your point about the inappropriateness of unilateral road maps.

I guess the major point I am trying to make is that the only way ahead is negotiation between the two sides. Somehow we need to decide an agenda for the negotiations (and agendas are usually title headings, e.g Settlers, Property Rights, they do not include details), and then get the two negotiating teams to work together in finding mutually acceptable compromises.

The procedure you are suggesting, ie GCs say what they want, TCs say if it is acceptable, TCs say what they demand, GCs consider it, etc., can only be achieved in the context of negotiations. It can NOT be achieved through letters that we will be sending back and forth to Annan in New York. I guess we don't really disagree on all this, it's just the particular word - "road map" - which carries different connotations for each of us ...

I see two particular preconditions for negotiations, and to each we may expect problems from one or the other side:

a. Issues should be open for discussion, and it should be possible for each side to present alternative and creative proposals. The TC side might object to this, in an effort to "lock the agenda" onto the Annan Plan provisions.

b. The two sides should be negotiating on an equal footing. The GC side might object to this, and presume to wish to "negotiate with Turkey directly", in an effort to promote a "European Solution" thesis in which the TCs are a protected minority, rather than a politically equal community.

Getting onto the "middle road", the road of genuine, open and creative negotiations between two politically equal sides, will not be easy, and all our attention now should be focused on how to avoid "the devil and the deep blue sea" of either the "Annan Plan as it is" thesis or the "European Solution" thesis.
Alexandros Lordos
Contributor
Contributor
 
Posts: 987
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 8:41 pm

Postby -mikkie2- » Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:05 pm

Welcome back Alexandre. Its good to have your level headed contributions in the forum. Hope all is well.

Getting onto the "middle road", the road of genuine, open and creative negotiations between two politically equal sides, will not be easy, and all our attention now should be focused on how to avoid "the devil and the deep blue sea" of either the "Annan Plan as it is" thesis or the "European Solution" thesis.


The problem as I see it, is the TC's fear loosing what they gained under the plan and as such anything that will bring back negotiations will be aimed at mitigating these gains. I cannot help but think that whatever happens, the GC's will have an uphill struggle to make things acceptable to us. The only thing I see is for the TC's to be willing to discuss issues which they deem closed. Will that happen? Especially when the tide of sympathy now seems to be with them? It is very difficult and I don't really know how things can move forward.
-mikkie2-
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor
 
Posts: 1298
Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:11 am

Postby insan » Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:15 pm

Well, the Annan Plan appeared, and that didn't satisfy Denktash, even though he was the negotiator for the TCs ...


Please don't forget that before the Annan Plan formaly presented to both sides; Clerides examined it and made some changes on it in favour of GC side. Wasn't this another well-planned Hellenic plot to create impressions that GC side accepted the plan as a basis for negotiaitons but Denktash rejected?
User avatar
insan
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 9044
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2003 11:33 pm
Location: Somewhere in ur network. ;]

PreviousNext

Return to Cyprus Problem Solution Proposals

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests