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PARTITION-CAN WE ACCEPT IT

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Piratis » Sun Mar 20, 2005 2:17 pm

But if we are getting more than 18% and in those borders we have sizeable GC community then I am willing to give them every right I have been asking from you guys, in an United Cyprus.


OK, lets say you get more land. You get an 18% GC "numerically less" community, in which case the population of your country (TC majority + GC "numerically less" community) is about 22%. So you get not 18% of land, but 22% of land of Cyprus, and this 22% is the "TC country" that from now on has nothing to do with the GC country (except of course the troops that the "GC country" will maintain in the TC country as the guarantor, and the right of "GC country" to intervene in the "TC country).

Now in this "TC country" are you sure that you would accept giving, as much as what Annan plan was giving to you in a "united cyprus" ? Do you think that the majority of TCs that accepted Annan plan, would accept a similar plan in state where they were the majority (ask family and friends).

If they do, then we found our solution :)
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Postby turkcyp » Sun Mar 20, 2005 4:04 pm

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Postby MicAtCyp » Sun Mar 20, 2005 4:23 pm

Turkcyp wrote: I am satisfied, thank you...


Ne guzel surpriz ! / What a nice surprise (after the wave of harsh attacks I got from others) re Turkcyp. I am really glad for it.

Turkcyp wrote: Also I guess I am looking for your suggestions for the transition period.


Turkcyp you assumption was that the Turkish army would leave. I have to make some more assumtions to make the whole idea practicable.
Assumtion 1. Agreement between the leaders for the return of the TCs to the RoC 1960 constitution with some minor changes.The only change I can think of, is the reduction of the 30% down to 18% for TC participation in the Government. The separate Municipalities is no problem anymore because it is obvious the TCs will be concentrated in the North for eternity and thus have their own Municipalities.
Assumption 2. Complete withdrawal of the Turkish and Greek armies within 2 months and complete disarmament of the National guards and reservists within the same period under UN supervision.

I beleive with good faith between the leaders we can have an agreement on the details of the above within one week.

Then we are left with the other 3 issues. Properties , settlers, and running the state with the participation of the TCs

PROPERTIES:
This is a complicated issue but here are some guidelines how to solve it.

a)Exchange of equal to equal properties most propably via a Board of property exchanges.This will not exclude private deals for exchange and will not force anyone to participate.
b)The wish of the current occupant to continue using the property has priority over the wish of the owner to get it back. In other words nobody can throw anyone out. This is applicable for houses and agricultural land, but not applicable for empty land.

From there on it is a matter of agreements between the individuals.They may agree to exchange properties, they may agree to rent, they may agree to buy, they may even agree to become partners(if the property is for bussiness) they may agree whatever.They even not agree on anything in which case they will go to court.

c)Compensation in cash for properties ex-propriated for public purposes (schools-roads-public buildings etc) whoever the expropriated authority had been.
d)People who cannot exchange, or cannot rent/buy, will be provided alternative housing by the state, and until that happens the state itself will pay rent to the owner.

I ve been very careful in writting the above short framework so that it cannot be knocked down by the ECHR in case the matter is challenged legally.

As for "a" that will be a free will step.But one would be stupid not to allow his property for exchange knowing damn well that in the end he might not be able to exchange or sell it or even use it. Some sentimental people will certainly not do it, but that will be their choice. They should not forget about "b" anyway!

Neither "b" can be disputed at the ECHR because the ownership right is not violated as long as someone is willing to pay you rent or buy or exchange. And still the owner has the right to go to court if he does not agree on anything or if he does not want to sell. All such cases ending at courts so far in the RoC resulted to the owner losing the case unless he proves beyond any doubt that he needs his property back because he has no other choice.

SETTLERS.
The RoC has the UN resolutions and all other legal decisions that settlers are illegal and the settlement a war crime. However this does not mean she can throw those people out just like that. RoC has signed hundreds of international agreements on Human rights not to mention the EU Aquis and the UN charta on Human rights.
So each and every case of a settler has to be examined separately considering both the human rights of the person, and the fact that he is a settler. There is no doubt a part of them will stay.In this respect we really need Turkeys good will and help.Both for those who will leave and also for those who will stay. After all Turkey should not have let this matter become such a big problem-I mean she definetely has responsibilities over it.

The fact remains however that those who will stay, will be practically propertyless, and the state with the help of Turkey must at least build them a house so they can stand on their feet and contribute to this society.
Don't forget that we will have to accomodate ourselves many propertyless GCs and TCs as well (not every GC or TC refugee had property prior to 1974 despite the fact they are now using properties of others...)

RUNNING OF THE STATE, PUBLIC SERVANTS ETC

I have a very simple proposal. Given the fact that the administrative structure in the northern part is almost identical to that of RoC I propose the amalglamation of the two into the RoC.In this respect no policeman will lose his job, no school teacher not anybody.Furthermore the Tcs will continue be administrated by their own people. Of course this may lead to more than 18% TCs in the Government but thats not a big deal anyway, the scope is not to have less than 18% TCs in the Government. Some positive discrimination will in fact be helpful in building trust.
I see only a small problem here - I mean according to the 1960 constitution we should have mixed courts- but I am sure this can be fixed by sending some judges to your courts and you to ours. Anyway even unmixed courts are fine with me since all these years our courts (I mean including those in the north) proved to be impartial.

It is obvious that until the standard of living of the TCs equalises (it may take about 15 years) the GCs will pay most of the cost for this bigger Government machine, for the development of the areas in which the TCs will be living, for accomodating propertyless/poor GCs and TCs that have to relocate etc etc. But the point is we (the GCs) will be paying for people that are ONE OF US not for a separate country as per Anan Plan.

One thing I insist must change in the 1960 constitution is that not only the Greek and Turkish Languages must be official but also that the Greek language is put on an obligatory basis in TC schools and the Turkish Language in GC schools. And existing government employees must go night school to learn it otherwise they are not qualified for promotion.
As far as I know there is no national anthem mentioned in the 1960 constitution, and thus we currently use the Greek one. This should certainly change too.
************************************************

Turkcyp on your question about what happens to improved properties.Lets suppose a TC got an emty building plot and built a house in and lets suppose the owner comes and says he wants his land back. Suppose he is so illogical that he does not want to exchange his old land with your land, and suppose he is so illogical he cannot accept you to pay him the land, or he to pay you for the house and get his land together with the house. Can we force him to accept anything? Of course not. He will go to court and the Court will teach him a good lesson.His case will be a precedence, so the next illogical guy will not even have to go to court before coming back to his senses.

Lets assume now you got a small house on a building plot, and you added rooms to it, or even knocked it down and builted your own. The locical thing is you to keep the property and either exchange it with something equal or just pay the owner for the value of the land and the small house he had in.Suppose the guy is illogical and goes to court .Will there be any court that will accept the knocking down of properties when the TC can claim it was a "force majeure" in otrher words circumstances beyond his controll forced him to use and develop a property that was not his? I don't think so. So here goes another illogical guy coming back to his senses.

The matter with the foreigners however (e.g British) is completely different. They cannot claim a "force majeure" situation. In fact all of them will lose everything. Unless of course the Greek Cypriot owner shows good will, and decides to be a good Christian. But I really doubt there will be many.Most GCs can show understanding and compassion for the TCs.However they are mad as hell with the British and other foreign opportunists and cannot hide their desire for revenge.

Apologies for my long post...
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Postby turkcyp » Sun Mar 20, 2005 4:35 pm

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Postby Piratis » Sun Mar 20, 2005 8:03 pm

Also we are not guaranteeing that TC state after the solution will want to be a part of EU, if it will be it will be on the terms the TC state agree with EU.

Thats of course if the GC "numerically less" community agrees on the terms also.

And furthermore I am also guaranteeing you that the amount of Turkish troops we are going to keep on the north of the island will be proportional to the amounts of the troops you keep on GC state.


You are not in the position to take such decisions by yourself. The GC "numerically less" community has to agree. Would you agree if in a "united" Cyprus we would bring here tons of Greek troops to protect us?

But other than that I can easily tell you that this solution is quite acceptable to TCs, and we are ready to give all the constitutional powers that were given to us in Annan Plan to them as well.


Ok we agree. So keep the 22%, from which you will give the 29% to the GC "numerically less" comunity of "TRNC" for its own component state. We are in agreement.
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Postby turkcyp » Sun Mar 20, 2005 8:21 pm

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Postby Piratis » Sun Mar 20, 2005 8:23 pm

Ok, we agreed then. :D
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Postby Deejay » Thu Mar 24, 2005 3:00 pm

I don't get why it is being referred to as PARTITION.

A Turkish North and Southern Greek State working together in a confederation solution is a great opportunity for both sides to accept the past and present and move on with our lives.

Both sides are living in limbo not knowing what is going on (More so the Turkish Cypriots).

Imagine living in a home for the past 50 years with a garden, firstly in the south, then in the north. You have a passion for farming and gardening. One day you are told that you must leave your premises and re-locate for a 3rd time to a block of flats/units to the 3rd floor as this is part of the new deal in Cyprus. Not only have you lost your garden in teh south, but also the north, and now you are in the 6th level of some high rise building staring at walls. You are also 58 years old and you dreamed of spending the remainder of your retirement years planting roses or tomatoes.

Here is just one scenario of how the Annan plan is unfair morally. Lets just move on with our lives.
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Postby boulio » Thu Mar 24, 2005 4:25 pm

no to confederation,yes to a strong federation.
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Postby turkcyp » Thu Mar 24, 2005 4:35 pm

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