Cyprus-Forum.com

[humanist]

VP I am not sure where you come from at times. For me the essence of the problem is that the minute you say "our" it implies separation and Cyprus will always have problems because it becomes a case of "them" and "us". So long as you perceive that there are two, three, four of five separate communities in Cyprus there will always be problems. Please try to at least mock me by perceiving a Cyprus of Cypriots and you may see that everyone could be equal if we drop the them and us and majority vs minority.

[Get Real!]

Read my last 6408 posts.

How much time have we got???

6 weeks 24 hours a day you may just make it.

Actually, yours would only take as long as it takes to read one because they're all the bloody same!

[miltiades]

Read my last 6408 posts.

How much time have we got???

6 weeks 24 hours a day you may just make it.

Actually, yours would only take as long as it takes to read one because they're all the bloody same!

Same crap , same bloody foreigner sticking his foreign nose where it doesnt concern him .

[Viewpoint]

Well Viewpoint you do not know GCs! If you think that the political parties in the south would unite to present a racially unified front you really are mistaken! Even during the days of the invasion in 1974 they were not united! They were still fighting each other.

No, my view is different. I think that they would all hire TC communications managers to translate their campaign into Turkish language leaflets, TV spots, etc. They would all get TC translators to translate their speeches when they appear on TV or speak on the radio. That is how it would happen. You need to read some GC newspapers and follow the political debate going on the south. No GC politician is gong to allow others to benefit from a decisive vote.

To remind you once more, we are talking about this happening in a Federal system where the rights of the TCs are guaranteed. The purpose is to have politics that span the ethnic communities.

One last point- the president of the Democratic Party, the one founded by the late President Kyprianou is now headed by an Armenian.

I disagree, when the matter is a national one and concerns TCs GCs will unite to ensure we do not get a look in, this is a big concern for us.

With regards to TC guaranteed representation this is all we ask for with added guarantees that we can stop any decision that will effect our community negatively. We have to have the right to say no.

You have expressed your concerns many times but have never told us exactly in what areas are your concerns more prominent. Perhaps an example might be needed.

Read my last 6408 posts.

The truth of the matter is that you have NOTHING of substance to back up your preposterous agenda that the ROC represents a threat to the T/Cs
and that they will be treated differently to the rest of Cypriots. We are a European nation and DO come under the scrutiny of the EU .In case you haven't noticed we are , unlike Turkey , well into the 21st century and accountable not only to the citizens of Cyprus but to the citizens of every civilized nation on earth.
The closest you came to informing us of your concerns has been your frequent use of the Pakistanis in the UK , who again are VERY VERY Happy to be in the UK and away from the political mess , corruption and poverty of their birth country.

1963 to 1974 backs me up 100%, its proof that this we are all Cypriot crap does not exist and only a pretence to having full power to take decisions on our behalf which could still include gifting the whole island to Greece or other major decisions which would effect our community negatively. Do you want us to leave it to chance and at the mercy of the GCs? becuase thats what you are trying to get TCs to accept as your are comfortable knowing that your community has the numercial advanatge. You know full well the discrimination that happens in the UK towards Pakistanis and Indians, the big difference is they chose to go live in the UK under English rule exactly like you, we TCs are indigenous like the English Scots and Welsh.

[Viewpoint]

OK Viewpoint, have it your way.

But there is a symbolic matter here. My opinion is that ALL citizens should, in theory at least, be able to aspire to the highest office of their country and also vote for the candidate to the same office. That is the second reason for having the presidency open to all citizens and not reserved exclusively for one community. The rotating presidency of the Annan plan did not fulfill this condition in a democratic way. In that case a person most of the people did not vote for would be president (ie half of the Greek Cypriots or half of the Turkish Cypriots).

Who gives a shit about the president that can easily be resolved by having joint candidates one TC one GC, whats important for TCs is having a say in our future and being able to say no where it is necessary.

You can say No anytime you want. All you have to do, is to convince the others to join you in saying No. All decision taken by the politicians and law makers will effect TC's and GC's equally. With your 18% as a block, if you can keep the Moderates and the Fascist together long enough to vote together as a block, will have a great impact. As Nikitas told you already, not all the GC's political party vote as a block. You have concerns, but those concerns have nothing to do with not having a voice. You want a special veto power to say No when ever you want. Sorry, but that's not how True Democracy works, and if you were so much in love with that veto power system, why don't you return back to the 1960 Constitution, where you had a TC vice President and a Veto Power.

82% vs 18% Can 18% say no to enosis?? or stopping trade with Turkey?? The GCs have no intention of sticking to the 1960 agreements if the TCs return they will rehash Akritas 2007 version via the EU and try to impose new red lines that will dilute our role, ask Piratis he confirms it will take less than 1 week for them to lodege changes to the EU.

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu , as well as many many more T/Cs , knows that just as I would not support a politician because he is a G/C neither would he support a politician because he is a T/C . The Scots will no tnecessarily support Brown because he is a Scot , why should it be different in Cyprus in the very near future.The first thing we ought to face head on is the fanatics , VP amongst the top echelons of the fascists.

You clearly do not know your own community and well not jump into a black hole and leave things to chance we demand definate safeguards to ensure we cannot be pushed to one side allowing GCs sole power over a united Cyprus.

[Viewpoint]

Why not , Pakistanis and Indians and Africans are elected to Parliament in the UK , WHY NOT IN CYPRUS.
I would most certainly without a shadow of a doubt support and vote for a party that embraces T/C politicians , it takes courage but it is not beyond the boundaries or realm. The day will come when the likes of PhoeniX , Benelos and the great impostor VP will be laid to rest because they represent what is ugly and inhuman in Cyprus.
Long may the voices of reason continue to play a leading role benefiting our people , our island.

Yet again pure utopia, you havent got a clue...80% vs 20% imbalance would ensure Gcs vote their own in and TCs are left out in the cold, your we are all Cypriots crap will soon hit the fan when you get what you want a GC state with TCs reduced to just another minority. Thats why you are comfortable knowing you have the numerical advantage, you dupe people like Bir and Kiaiakpoulous.

I have given the TC's best possible solution short of a Partition with this PLAN
http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=12055 , but it is not good enough to you, because you do not want a solution but instead a Partition, so it is not worth the effort to talk sense to you.

If you want me to continue being civil with you, watch what you write.

Please read my responses to your plan and remind yourself of the outcome.

What do you want me to watch???

Its really the Gcs that the BBF idea has to be sold to, not many are in favor...The TCs have been saying this for ages dont forget the demonized AP was a BBF solution according to 99% of the world.

This was the only thing I could find from your contribution to my plan. Is this what you are talking about ?

I know that you supported "Kifeas's Plan" from last year and another similar plan that I wrote last year, but since then all you have talked about is Partition or BBF as in 2 independent states with a very weak central government, like a Confederation, with the North basically becoming Turkish Only State.

Did you say anything else that I may have missed perhaps, and if so, please tell me where I can read it.

What do you want me to watch?

I be sure to let you know next time you make a "slip".

I agreed with Kifeas has he cleverly incorporated a veto right for TCs when matters were sensative and could result in the TCs being effected negatively.

Slip?????

[Viewpoint]

VP I am not sure where you come from at times. For me the essence of the problem is that the minute you say "our" it implies separation and Cyprus will always have problems because it becomes a case of "them" and "us". So long as you perceive that there are two, three, four of five separate communities in Cyprus there will always be problems. Please try to at least mock me by perceiving a Cyprus of Cypriots and you may see that everyone could be equal if we drop the them and us and majority vs minority.

This we are all Cypriots philosphy is just another ploy to get TCs to assimilate accepting GCs as the only indigenous people of Cyprus and thus the rulers and decision makers. We will not fall into this trap and fight for our rights under a BBF with political equality of the 2 communities as supported by the UN and incorporated in the AP which will be the base for any further negotiations.

You find it easy to support this we are all Cypriots crap as you are in the 82% that will automatically stand to take control and see us reduced to a minority with no community rights, we will fight this tooth and nail and demand safeguards that will stop GCs form excluding us from running a united Cyprus. If this is not the GCs goal then why are GCs so against safeguards, obvioulsy they have hidden agendas to reach their goal of taking control of the whole island and sweeping us to one side yet again.

[Kikapu]

The land is my mothers who is alive.

She lives in the TRNC.

She has not exchanged it for disputed land.

What does she have to do?

Can she sell it? as she has no intention of ever going back.

OK VP, lets see what is going on with your mothers land.

I must tell you up front, that the way you phrase some of your words, makes me want to ask questions regarding your mothers land, which make me also doubt just how truthful you are, regarding the 100 Donums. For one thing, calling it "disputed land" up in the North, is nothing more than not telling the truth, which is stolen land. Which part of the North GC's land do you find it to be "disputed". Only those who are sitting on GC land would call it "disputed" because it would be too embarrassing to say it is stolen. Israel also makes the same claim with the Palestinian land. Then again, we do share similarities in what the Jewish State has done to the Palestinians, don't we.?? Words have meanings each time you use them, and the meaning of "disputed land" is nothing other than theft. I noticed you never said that your mothers 100 Donum land in the RoC was "disputed land". No, you said "it is my mothers land". No ifs or buts, so lets have a little bit more honesty, shall we and respect all the GC's who have their land under occupation in the "TRNC".

Now lets get to your mother's "undisputed" land in the RoC. I already get the feeling that you have already looked into cashing in her land, but was refused, so lets see why she was refused.

As I said before, if she was away from Cyprus at the time of the 1974 Invasion, and had never returned to live in the "TRNC", then it would all been nothing but formality in getting her land back and sell it, if she wished to do so. So that opportunity was missed, because she does live in the "TRNC". Now she must go and live 6 months in the RoC, in order to do anything with her land. She can be confirmed by the Land Registry Office, through their computers, as your mother being the only registered owner of the 100 Donums. So far so good.

The only problem is, certain Minister who oversees the TC properties in the RoC can block your mother being able to sell her land, if they are not certain that she has not received GC "exchange land" in return, in the "TRNC", and also has not bought or sold any GC land. So how can she prove that she has not done those things, to please the Minister. The truth is, she can't. For one thing, how can the Minister check her innocence. Will the "TRNC" help the Minister if they ask them to give the Minister information on your mother. I doubt it. Secondly, your mother now has a different last name than what was originally on the RoC land deeds. As far as the Minister is concerned, your mother could have received 100 Donums of GC land in the "TRNC", under her new name, which the "TRNC" will not tell the Minister. But you are saying, "yes but, my mother has the original RoC deeds in her hand, therefore she could not have given them to the "TRNC" for GC land in exchange". The truth is, most TC's gave the "TRNC" just copies of their RoC deeds, and not the originals. You see VP, your mother could have exchanged her 100 Donums to GC land in the "TRNC", and then turned around and gifted them all to you, therefore there can be no traces left for the RoC to find out, if the "TRNC" does not cooperate. This would make the Minister not give the go ahead to allow your mother to sell her land.

Even if she was able to sell her land in the RoC, just how much do you think she could make.?? As Deniz stated earlier, TC land goes for very cheap in the RoC, because it is thought to be a "fire sale" and no one is going to pay anywhere what it's worth. Secondly, she would have to pay back taxes on the land to the RoC. So she will end up with some cash, but would it have been worth her while to go through all the trouble.?? Lets not forget also, that if the RoC Minister was able to make contact with the "TRNC" to ask questions about your mother trying to sell her land in the RoC to a GC's, knowing full well that the "TRNC" is against any TC selling their land to the GC's, you mother would be in very hot water with the Fanatic. They want all the TC land to stay as is in the RoC, so that it can be used to trade land in the South for GC land in the North, in possible future settlement agreements.

But here is a question for you VP. As a Partitionist, why would you get your mother to sell her land to the GC's, when she could have sold her land to the "TRNC". Granted, the "TRNC" would have only given her few pennies on the Dollar, but it would have remained in TC's hand. So I have a question in my mind, whether you are telling the truth, that your mother has not exchanged her 100 donums to 100 donums of GC land in the "TRNC". If she has not done that, and wanted to sell her land, she could have done so to the "TRNC" trouble free rather than having to deal with the GC that you show so much contempt for. So I'm afraid, I for one is not convinced that your mother has not "exchanged" her TC land for a GC land in the "TRNC", and that is the reason why the Minister has the last word on which TC's can sell their land in the RoC and who cannot, because they believe some are trying to "double dip" by holding onto GC land in the "TRNC" and try to cash in their land in the RoC...... I know of one or two cases, where this was done.

[Viewpoint]

So in effect you have answered your own question that TCs cannot do anything with their land in ho so democratic south, there are many obstacles placed in TCs path from the "RoC" "ministers" to the corrupt lawyers who use delaying tactics to slow down the legal process on the instructions of your beloved "RoC", fyi these offices in the GC state would never enquire to the TRNC as it would be tantamount to recognition.

You would do yourself and everyone else a great favor if you used less accusations of not telling the truth, your arrogance is riddled like the plague in your post and concentrated more on the injustice imposed on many innocent TCs who live in the TRNC and have not gotten anything for their land in the south in the north. You can make up your little excuses to camoflouge your worship for the GC states system of stopping TCs from havingjust as many problems with land issues when trying to claim their rights within a supposedly democratic EU country which has one set of rules for GCs and another for TCs, this makes your country the "RoC" a hypocrite and just as bad as the TRNC when it comes to land issues.