Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

The 1960 agreements were given to us. They didn't even ask us when they were creating them. There was no referendum, and people didn't have a clue about the details of those agreements.

I don't know if Turkcyp consideres the 30% of governmental positions given to TCs and similar super unfair privileges as part of the "balance between the communities".

Yes, one of the reasons that 1960 agreements didn't work as they should was that some GCs didn't take them seriously and they preferred enosis instead. Another reason is that TCs preferred partition instead. But the main reason was that those agreements were not balanced.

So indeed a lot of goodwill and patience was required in order for them to wok. For example the TCs should have had the goodwill to understand that things like 30% of government positions were unfair, and GCs should have the patience to wait peacefully until TCs understood that such things were not fair.

[cannedmoose]

The 1960 agreements were given to us. They didn't even ask us when they were creating them. There was no referendum, and people didn't have a clue about the details of those agreements.

Exactly piratis. For the same reasons, the way that the Annan Plan was rushed through, providing little opportunity for people to genuinely study it and recognise its implications (short of polemic statements by politicians and activists), was also a recipe for disaster.

I was pro-Annan but I appreciate that such a complex document needs to be fully and publicly explored in order to reach a balanced decision. It's increasingly becoming clear to me that the tight deadlines were an attempt to railroad the public into an agreement. I still vehemently disagree with TPap's emotional rhetoric and with the extremely unbalanced nature of the (limited) debates that took place, but with the benefit of hindsight I can understand why so many people voted against, even if I didn't appreciate that at the time.

As for the 1960 constitution, I've been studying this pretty heavily for the past week as part of my work. It failed not simply due to subterfuge from both sides, but due to the lack of co-operation between the two communities. The only way that such a complex constitutional arrangement could have functioned was in a spirit of give-and-take, general goodwill and a desire for mutual advancement. If we look back to the Cyprus of the late 1950s, none of these factors were apparent.

Moreover, the high percentage requirements for TCs in government positions was a result of their recruitment en masse by the British authorities during the 1950s, when many GCs withdrew from the colonial administration in support of, or under threat from EOKA. As a consequence, when it came to 1960, once the decision for ethnic quotas was finalised, the choice was either to reduce the ratios to 80:20 or 75:25 (which would have more accurately reflected the population spread and would have resulted in significant numbers of TCs being made redundant to make space available for GCs) or raise the bar.

I have to say from reading the Constitution in full for the first time, it was unbelievably prescribed and so full of checks and balances as to be almost unworkable in a more homogenous society, let alone one riven with ethnic discord. I've seen it described somewhere as a Constitution without foundations, I think that's a pretty accurate label, and it's why the whole house came crashing down 3 years later.

Thus, rather than a unitary solution, I can only see that a federation can work. That way, both sides will have a full say in their own administration, without the need for quotas and, with federal zones within which co-operation can be developed.

[Bananiot]

So, one might say that federation is a blessing in disguise. I will repeat a platitude. If htere is no good will from both sides no plan can work, no matter how "good" it is. Federation is what we deserve and the bicommunal, bizonal factors attached to it may be the safeguards that will give us some decades of peaceful development and coexistence that will eradicate deep seated hate and passion.

In the meantime, Christofias is on holidays in Australia. Speaking to ex patriots, he repeated Tasos's call for negotiations without strict timetable, for no arbitration and for an agreed solution before going for a new referendum.

I still believe this is a recipe for partition. What do you think?

[brother]

I think the velvet partition is starting to make itself known, until recently people talked about solution via a unified cyprus, but now i hear more and more people talking about partition, so was this the tassos plan with denktas junior they spoke about in their secret meetings prior to referandum.

[cannedmoose]

In the meantime, Christofias is on holidays in Australia.

Lucky for some... shouldn't he be holidaying in North Korea or Cuba?

[cannedmoose]

denktas junior

Just out of interest, was it ever discovered if Raif's death was a genuine accident or something else? ... and before people start kicking off, I've read all the conspiracy theories... looking for some hard facts now if they exist.

I also didn't realise he was a pretty good musician... find out something new every day...

[insan]

Exactly piratis. For the same reasons, the way that the Annan Plan was rushed through, providing little opportunity for people to genuinely study it and recognise its implications (short of polemic statements by politicians and activists), was also a recipe for disaster.

Hi cannedmoose gumbaro mou re


Are TCs and Turks have more intelligent than GCs and Greeks that under the same circumstances and same time limit they comprehended, understood and digested the 1960 proposal and Annan Plan? Or do those plans simply favoured TCs and Turks and hence majority of TCs and Turks embraced those proposals?


I don't think the core of the problem is the time limit and providing more opportunity to GCs to genuinely study it and recognize its implications. The core of the problem is demands of Hellenic side:

1- Nullification of treaty of guarantee and treaty of alliance.
2- Reaptriation of vast majority of settlers if possible all of them.
3- Return of all refugees.
4- Return of all properties.
5- Full political rights for permenant GC residents of TCCS to represent TCCS in Federal Senate.
6- Majority Rule.


As long as Hellenic side insist on taking full control of Cyprus they would reject all those proposals that don't grant them what they want. It is obvious to me.

The reasons(pre-texts) lay behind the Hellenic ruling elite mentality:

1- The self-determination right of Cypriot people.(As If ever there has been one)

2- Retrospective hatred against Turks and Turk descendants.

3- Instead of considering the current status-quo as a consequence of joint mistakes of past; they ignore all joint mistakes and put all the blame on Turkey. According to Hellenic mentality the current status-quo is not a consequence of joint mistakes but "Turkish invasion". They claim that accepting the joint mistakes of the past equal to legitimize the "Turkish invasion"

Do you think they will ever change this mentality? I don't think so.

[brother]

Some time ago denktas senior made allegations which were published in many turkish and tc papers how he was sure that the turkish secret service had him killed because he knew of a turkish goverment plot of supplying drugs etc.

[insan]

You have no idea re gumaro mou cannedmoose?

[Bananiot]

He prefers luxury (didn't they all?) but of course you must realise that officially he is on a state visit, so to speak. Real patriots do not take time off, they are day and night struggling for the old country's interests. Some people buy this. Here in Cyprus many people buy this, come to think. Its deppresing ... wife, my xanax!