Cyprus-Forum.com

[-mikkie2-]

This article appeared in the Daily Telegraph in the UK. It shows the problems that Belgium is facing with its federation, one which the TC's seem to like referring to when proposing a solution in Cyprus.

Belgium celebrates with a feeling the party's over
By David Rennie in Brussels
(Filed: 12/03/2005)

Belgium is 175 years old this year, and it is throwing itself a birthday party in the form of a 12-month festival of national pride.



To outsiders, 175 might seem an odd anniversary. Not to Belgians. As the country's French and Dutch speaking regions feud, many Belgians fear that their country will not exist in a few decades. Belgium might not be around for its 200th birthday.

The largest exhibition of the festival, called "Made in Belgium", opened this week in Brussels, boasting 4,000 national treasures.

These range from a sword reputed to have belonged to an 11th century Belgian crusader, Godefroi de Bouillon, to the spacesuit worn by the first Belgian astronaut and a display of Belgian cuisine, featuring chips, mussels, waffles and beer.

Displays hail famous Belgians such as Georges Simenon, Jacques Brel, Rene Magritte, the cyclist Eddy Merckx and Adolphe Sax, the creator of the saxophone. Space is also found for more local heroes such as Karel van Depoele, the inventor of an electrical connector used on early trolley buses.

A straw poll of 18-year-olds on a school trip to the exhibition found seven confident that Belgium would still exist in 30 years time.

Three were sure that French-speaking Wallonia, in the south, and Dutch-speaking Flanders, in the north, will have split by then.

One pupil, Gregoire Ncyzinck, said: "Belgium will exist, but it will be different.

''Every country is going to be dissolved into a greater European whole, more like the United States."

The youngsters, from French-speaking Liege, said they had few Flemish friends. "Their mentality is different. They're less open, and they work harder than us. We like the good life," said one.

A more scientific poll, conducted by Le Soir last month, showed that only 52 per cent of Brussels natives thought Belgium would "definitely" or "probably" exist in 50 years' time. Asked the same question, 55 per cent of Flanders residents said Yes, and 63 per cent of Walloons.

Officially, this year is a double party. It is 175 years since the Belgians threw off the Dutch colonial yoke. It is also 25 years since Belgium tried to stem inter-regional tensions with a programme of devolution that over the years has handed vast swathes of government policy down to the regions.

Belgium, a country of 10.3 million, has six parliaments. There is a federal parliament, then separate assemblies for the Brussels Capital region, Flanders, Wallonia, the French-speaking community of Wallonia and Brussels and, not to be left out, one for Belgium's 70,000 strong German-speaking minority. There are six different governments, each with its own ministers and bureaucrats.

After a long history of subjugation by a French elite, the Dutch-speaking majority - 60 per cent of the population - wields ever-greater economic and political power. Its resentment at subsidising the post-industrial Wallonia is growing more vocal.

Brussels, a largely French speaking island in the middle of Flanders, is one of the strongest bonds keeping Belgium together, if only because Wallonia and Flanders cannot agree who would take the city, with all its Euro-money and institutions.

John Servais, an 80-year-old, is old enough to have been raised a Belgian, pure and simple. He believes that a separatist poison entered the body politic during the Second World War. "The Germans favoured the Flemish and encouraged their nationalism, to create what they called a 'greater Germany'. That was the beginning of it," he said.

Mr Servais is no fan of Belgium's federal experiment.

He noted reports this week that Belgian foreign aid will soon be devolved to regional governments.

"They say it will need seven new ministers. Seven! It's madness," he said.

He rubbed his finger and thumb together, in a sign of money-grubbing. "For our politicians, all this is in their interest."

[pantelis]

The Belgian history and the lessons of co-existence of multiple nationalities in a complicated political system are very interesting and offer many insights to the Cypriots.
We should not repeat their mistakes, but try to copy their system where it's simple, efficient and fair for all and within the new European framework, at the same time.

Why don't we invite the Belgians to develop this system?

[cannedmoose]

The Belgian history and the lessons of co-existence of multiple nationalities in a complicated political system are very interesting and offer many insights to the Cypriots.
We should not repeat their mistakes, but try to copy their system where it's simple, efficient and fair for all and within the new European framework, at the same time.

Why don't we invite the Belgians to develop this system?

Another good model is that of Switzerland. I believe this is another scenario that was fed into the Annan Plan. If you visit the Swiss government website, their constitutional arrangements make for interesting reading. Ultimately, any Cyprus model is going to have to account for local circumstances as all good constitutions do... and which is why the imposed 1960 model was a disaster waiting to happen.

[metecyp]

It seems to me that the problem in Belgium federation is the number of internal governments. I can see how having six governments in a small country like Belgium can be problematic but I don't understand why you brought this up as if it's applicable to Cyprus. 175 years of coexistence is not good enough?

[cannedmoose]

It seems to me that the problem in Belgium federation is the number of internal governments. I can see how having six governments in a small country like Belgium can be problematic but I don't understand why you brought this up as if it's applicable to Cyprus. 175 years of coexistence is not good enough?

If you have six systems of government in Cyprus, everyone will be a politician ... that's yet another disaster waiting to happen

[metecyp]

If you have six systems of government in Cyprus, everyone will be a politician eye crazy ... that's yet another disaster waiting to happen

Yes, but this is not going to happen in Cyprus. We'll have maximum 3 systems, 2 internal states, 1 federal government. That's why I don't understand why mikkie thought this was applicable to Cyprus. TCs like to talk about the Belgian model because it's a working federation and we can learn a lot from it, just like the Swiss model, the US and even the EU. We never said that you can take the Belgian model and apply to Cyprus directly. Every federation is unique with pros/cons and Cypriot federation will also be unique with imperfections.

[-mikkie2-]

?

I am simply pointing out that this federal utopia everyone seems to want is beginning to cause problems in Belgium which is always given as a good example of federalism!

As the article stated, a nation of 10.5 million has 6 federal bodies. Cyprus which is 800,000 people is going to have 3 federal bodies.

I have only bought this to your attention as a point of debate.

[turkcyp]

If you do not like communal federation, then partition is the second best alternative for both GCs and TCs!!!

So I guess you have to pick and choose, or as Piratis always says wait till the balance of power shifts so you can impose your solution on us.

p.s. Even that so much cherrished 1960 constituion that you keep on refering is a communal federation, without specific boundaries. Any kind of solution that does not provide equality to communitues, like Annan plan or 1960 constituion, will never be accepted to TCs.

[cannedmoose]

p.s. Even that so much cherrished 1960 constituion that you keep on refering is a communal federation, without specific boundaries. Any kind of solution that does not provide equality to communitues, like Annan plan or 1960 constituion, will never be accepted to TCs.

Slightly confused by your hostility to the AP turkcyp. Especially since recent polls show that TCs are largely still in favour of it... as for the 1960 Constitution, I've been doing some work on that recently and for all intents and purposes that Constitution (in theory, not so much in practice) was heavily biased in favour of the TC community, so again, your stance on that one is slightly strange.

[Viewpoint]

I second that turkcyp, well said.