Cyprus-Forum.com

[cannedmoose]

The current reciprocal, strong cooperation between "RoC" and Greece is the strongest evidence that they have a political union. They always support each others pollitical decisions and frequently consult each other to maintain this "useful" partnership.

This could be said of many countries, France and Germany are the key example here, but I sense no popular desire in either of these countries for a political union. The EU functions on the basis of close co-operation and it is therefore natural that Greece and Cyprus as EU neighbours will strengthen their co-operation within Europe. The real evidence of political unity would only be demonstrated when vital issues are at stake, say it comes to a point where Greece is on the verge of settling its issues with Turkey, but Cyprus is still playing hardball, I think we'd soon see where Greece's priorities lie.

They dream that by using the EU membership they will force us to accept the solution they want. Ain't it obvios to you? And it is obvious what kind of solution Hellenic ruling elite(Masters of puppet politicians) want. You can't find just one among them that supports "political equality" of two communities.

On this we are in some agreement, yes Cyprus (with a great deal of assistance from Greece) did regard EU membership as a strategic tool with which to lever their position. However, what they didn't consider was that the EU would never tolerate Greek Cypriots acting as overlords over the Turkish Cypriot community. The TRNC might not be recognised as a legal entity, but everyone within the EU knows that it exists de facto, and has functioned quite reasonably as a state for the last thirty years. Despite its faults and its patent incapability to sustain itself without Turkish assistance, the TRNC has provided Turkish Cypriots with a democratic system of government and self-expression.

So, I really don't think the TCs have anything to fear from the GC community. Any solution in Cyprus will be closely monitored by the other EU member states and ANY indication that TC rights are being diminished or abused will be met with condemnation from all quarters. Plus, as I said previously, a majority-minority set-up is just not going to prevail. Any solution will have to involve a large degree of self-government for both communities.

[insan]

So, I really don't think the TCs have anything to fear from the GC community.

TCs have nothing to fear about GC community but they have a lot about to fear about some strong political factions in GC community. "Ordinary" people are dependent to their bosses. They are dependent to the hands that feed them. When they threatened with cutting their "life blood" they would feel themselves to take side with the strong one. This is the problem. But in spite of I repeated this at least 100 times, I think I failed to express the difference between GC community and dangerous, strong, political GC factions, self-interest groups in GC community.

[Saint Jimmy]

TCs have nothing to fear about GC community but they have a lot about to fear about some strong political factions in GC community. "Ordinary" people are dependent to their bosses. They are dependent to the hands that feed them. When they threatened with cutting their "life blood" they would feel themselves to take side with the strong one. This is the problem. But in spite of I repeated this at least 100 times, I think I failed to express the difference between GC community and dangerous, strong, political GC factions, self-interest groups in GC community.

The distinction is clear, at least to me, Insan. And I agree with the behavioural process you describe here.
What finds me in disagreement is your suggestion that there exists a hidden agenda of future union with Greece. I am pretty sure some of the people in these factions you speak of do, indeed, want to impose terms on the eventual solution that will be unacceptable to TCs (but only seen as fair by themselves), but that's a long way from claiming that we maintain the original cause of this madness - that we have learnt nothing over the last 42 years - that we fail to realize what only you seem to have realized (unless you think that we have realized it, but are lying about it).

[insan]

What finds me in disagreement is your suggestion that there exists a hidden agenda of future union with Greece.

jimmy, if GC leadership have had full control over entire island in full cooperation with Greece what would their strategical role in East Mediterennean region? What would their political gain and status in NATO and EU? There's no doubt, it would be great for them. TCs either as a "politically equal" partner of GC community or a seperate state on North of the island will always be an obstacle in front of their strategical and political road. They don't want to collaborate with TCs and Turkey on their strategical and political ideals because they consider TCs and Turkey as a must be rid of handicaps in front of their future political status in EU and NATO.

I am pretty sure some of the people in these factions you speak of do, indeed, want to impose terms on the eventual solution that will be unacceptable to TCs (but only seen as fair by themselves), but that's a long way from claiming that we maintain the original cause of this madness - that we have learnt nothing over the last 42 years - that we fail to realize what only you seem to have realized (unless you think that we have realized it, but are lying about it).

Whom do you imply by saying "we"? The GC, Greek leadership and their wealthy "representatives" residing in various countries have always used their influential power to serve the great interests of Hellenism. They united their forces and resources to strengthen the Hellene's political, economical ans social status where they live. There's nothing wrong with this. Of course they will exert great effort for the interests of their nation.


What is the problem? A GC dominated Cyprus in absolute agreement with Greece can provide them the tool to achieve their great ideals without exerting any effort to convince any political group in EU, NATO and other international organizations. In this age, it is EU, NATO, US and UK that badly need countries like Turkey and Cyprus in East Mediterennean region more than Turkey and Cyprus need them. However this is not the root of the matter. The root of the matter is the joint collaboration of all countries in this alliance. Although Turkey is not a member of EU yet, she behaves like a member of this alliance as a candidate country. On the other hand she is a strategic military partner of all EU countries as a NATO member. There are two major obstacles in front of Turkey's road to EU.

1- Christian Democrats, conservative political groups and extreme anti-Turkish groups.
2- Human Rights violations in Turkey.

In 5 or 10 years time Turkey can overcome the problem of human rights violations but she has strong doubts about the future stance of Christian Democrats, conservative political groups and extreme anti-Turkish groups of Europe. It is obvious that these political groups that almost constitute half of the political power within all of the EU decision making mechanisms and watch the time, look for any opportunity to damage Turkey's EU road in order to prevent her membership.


In this age of uncertainity, Turkey should be very careful while taking steps forward.

[Saint Jimmy]

jimmy, if GC leadership have had full control over entire island in full cooperation with Greece what would their strategical role in East Mediterennean region? What would their political gain and status in NATO and EU? There's no doubt, it would be great for them. TCs either as a "politically equal" partner of GC community or a seperate state on North of the island will always be an obstacle in front of their strategical and political road. They don't want to collaborate with TCs and Turkey on their strategical and political ideals because they consider TCs and Turkey as a must be rid of handicaps in front of their future political status in EU and NATO.

ΟΚ, but this is a vicious cycle. In the same way, Turkey wouldn't object to Cyprus being annexed to her and being inhabited solely by Turks. Does this mean that Turkish people or the Turkish ruling elite are plotting secretly to annihilate Hellenism from Cyprus, so that they can enjoy ownership of Cyprus? Obviously not, although, much like GCs once thought they could own Cyprus by themselves, Turkey once harboured thoughts of owning at least part of Cyprus. But these days are gone. In the same way that I know that Turks are not after GCs or Cyprus anymore, you should know that there are no conspiracies in the South, either. The RoC-Greece relationship is a healthy one - one of collaboration, not conspiracy.

Whom do you imply by saying "we"? The GC, Greek leadership and their wealthy "representatives" residing in various countries have always used their influential power to serve the great interests of Hellenism. They united their forces and resources to strengthen the Hellene's political, economical ans social status where they live. There's nothing wrong with this. Of course they will exert great effort for the interests of their nation.

So how did this united force that strengthens the Hellene's political, economic and social status work? FYROM is now the Republic of Macedonia, the Imia crisis was definitely not resolved in favour of Greece, the continental shelf issue is still there. So, what's a good example of this united force's actions? (The Euro 2004 thing doesn't count. That was won fair and square!)

There are two major obstacles in front of Turkey's road to EU.

1- Christian Democrats, conservative political groups and extreme anti-Turkish groups.
2- Human Rights violations in Turkey.

No Cyprus?

In 5 or 10 years time Turkey can overcome the problem of human rights violations but she has strong doubts about the future stance of Christian Democrats, conservative political groups and extreme anti-Turkish groups of Europe. It is obvious that these political groups that almost constitute half of the political power within all of the EU decision making mechanisms and watch the time, look for any opportunity to damage Turkey's EU road in order to prevent her membership.

OK, but this doesn't have much to do with the 'secret agenda' issue.

In this age of uncertainity, Turkey should be very careful while taking steps forward.

She should, indeed, but making up enemies where they don't exist is never a good idea.

[insan]

ΟΚ, but this is a vicious cycle. In the same way, Turkey wouldn't object to Cyprus being annexed to her and being inhabited solely by Turks. Does this mean that Turkish people or the Turkish ruling elite are plotting secretly to annihilate Hellenism from Cyprus, so that they can enjoy ownership of Cyprus? Obviously not, although, much like GCs once thought they could own Cyprus by themselves, Turkey once harboured thoughts of owning at least part of Cyprus. But these days are gone. In the same way that I know that Turks are not after GCs or Cyprus anymore, you should know that there are no conspiracies in the South, either. The RoC-Greece relationship is a healthy one - one of collaboration, not conspiracy.

The distinction between Turkish Ruling Elite(TC and Turkey's Ruling Elite) and Hellenic Ruling Elite(GC and Greek ruling elite) is that Turkish ruling elite consider "political equality" or a seperate state in North adequate to protect TCs and Turkey's interests. They don't need whole Cyprus to protect their interests.

So how did this united force that strengthens the Hellene's political, economic and social status work? FYROM is now the Republic of Macedonia, the Imia crisis was definitely not resolved in favour of Greece, the continental shelf issue is still there. So, what's a good example of this united force's actions? (The Euro 2004 thing doesn't count. That was won fair and square!)

Although they have some influence on international decision making mechanisms, apparently it is insufficient. Imagine if they have had a trump card in their hands that US, UK, EU badly needed? Then Cyprus under total control of GC leadership in absolute consensus with Greece would play a great role.

No Cyprus?

It is included in those two groups.

[insan]

The big problem with the genesis of Cyprus came through a unilateral, rather than joint struggle against colonial rule during the British period. One community struggled for independence (and enosis), whilst the other was reticent (and fearful of the future) to do so.

The struggle of one community was initiated as annexation with Greece, in late 1800s in frame of "megali idea" and continued in this frame until mid-50s when Hellenic Ruling elite changed their annexation plan with Greece and based their struggle upon the scheme of self-determination right of Cypriot people. The other comunity has never been reticent to this unilateral, sneaky scheme. GC community has never struggled for independence. If there has been any initiatives for independence of Cyprus they would colloborate and cooperate with TC community that constituted 1/4 of Cyprus population. Of course the then TC leadership and intelligentsia would ask "political equality" of two communities in independent Cyprus as a pre-condition of common independence struggle. Would GC leadership and intelligentsia accept the TC pre-condition? Apparently, no. TC leadership and intelligentsia(Then TC ruling elite) has never been reticent the unilateral annexation schemes of GCs. They have always harshly critisized and condemned the Enosis attempts provoked by GC leadership and intelligentsia(Then GC ruling elite)

Thus 'Cypriot-ness' never reached its fruition as a national struggle.

Correct.


Ps: Visit Paseka.org for more info about bi-communal politics throughout the British Rule and post-1960 period. There's a good study there about this issue, prepared by Nicholas Ganzis.

[cannedmoose]

It seems we agree on things for once insan Hopefully you'll realise I'm not a stooge to GC's now... still, I'll probably be accused on being a TC stooge now...

[insan]

It seems we agree on things for once insan Hopefully you'll realise I'm not a stooge to GC's now... still, I'll probably be accused on being a TC stooge now...

Lately, I've realized that you are seeking a more balanced point of view in order to evade being accused as a "Turk lover", "Muezzinoglu", "Turkish ambassador", "Mentally Brittish influenced", "traitor" etc.

[cannedmoose]

Lately, I've realized that you are seeking a more balanced point of view in order to evade being accused as a "Turk lover", "Muezzinoglu", "Turkish ambassador", "Mentally Brittish influenced", "traitor" etc.

Thanks mate... I think