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Compromises?

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby turkcyp » Tue Mar 15, 2005 1:02 am

MicAtCyp wrote:But my dear friend Turkcyp, I do not disagree on any single point of your post and I don't see where your reply disagrees to what I said, other than perhaps the above quoted part. Which I don't really see as a disagreement but rather than a different lets say "evaluation" of what would follow.
However I have another evaluation that I did not mention before. That "Primary Law" thing my friend was the 11th demand of the Generals!! And IT-WAS-INCLUDED- in the Plan. Without its full satisfaction the Generals would be leagally covered NOT let the agreement move a single inch! Even your line of prediction of events would NOT satisfy the Generals. So either Cyprus would drop out of the EU or Solution as per Anan Plan yok!

That was the final round of Turkeys Original target originating from 2002 (?) to de-train Cyprus EU road! It surprises me how easily we the Cypriots tend to forget such important statements made in the past.


Actually primary law thing is very important and you can merely say that it was the latest demand of generals, but knowing the legal workings I hope both you and I should agree that it is a necessary demand for the sustainability of the agreement.

I mean we can sit down today and agree on something but some people who did not like the agreement may take the agreements and got rid of all of its derogations from EU law (not just permanent derogation any extra derogations which is not already bargained between RoC and EU before accession will be illegal). So why are we even discussing here id the accepted agreement is going to turn from EU.

Actually IT WAS NOT included in plan. Because knowing the impossibility of satisfying that demand in the last minute, what UN officials come up with is that stupid proposal of writing a letter to EU commission and trying to get it to approve the plan, knowing very well that commissions approval does not mean anything unless it is approved by each state independently, and as a whole at the summit. Are you saying to me that Annan Plan was seeking approval of each member country? I hope not. It was merely seeking an approval letter from EU enlargement commission, which actually means nothing without approval of all the member states.

SO that portion of the plan you are talking about was nothing more than shutting up that demand of TC side with false and hopeless promises, knowing very well that it does not actually mean anything.

But TC side will not do the same mistake again the next time. One thing TC side will definitely demand this time it that same approval without false promises by the commission so that the agreement itself become the primary law. So get ready to convince your fellow EU member states to ratify the agreement together with ratifying the agreement at the summit, if there is an agreement in the future.

Without making it primary law, any derogation we agree on would return from EU. And I know majority of GCs would like that, TCs do not want to accept a solution which will be trashed later on by EU.

In short what I agree with you was that

"There was nothing in Annan Plan taht would derail RoC from EU. What would derail was that some portions of Annan Plan reagrding derogations from acquis extended to TCs would have turned back from EU courts helping further GCs not TCs."

I mean afterall the illegal way you have conducted all the EU accesion talks did not raise any eyebrows in EU why would this derail you out of EU.

(According to your current constituion any foreign policy decision has to to be approved by TC vice president and can be vetoed by TC, I do not remember who approve the whole EU accesion from TC side, let alone I do not know who is your TC vice president. It is simply very conveninet for you guys to keep TCs out of goverment claiming that they do not want to be a part of it. Actually I can further can say that Annan Plan was actually legitimizing many illegitimate things you have done in our absence, like EU accession.)
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Postby -mikkie2- » Tue Mar 15, 2005 1:15 am

MicAtCyp I think made the point quite clear.

I don't believe for one minute that Cyprus will forgo its EU membership in order to accomodate the Turkish Cypriot wants (or is that Turkish wants?). Something that was worked hard for for many years will not be signed away that easily.
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Postby -mikkie2- » Tue Mar 15, 2005 1:22 am

(According to your current constituion any foreign policy decision has to to be approved by TC vice president and can be vetoed by TC, I do not remember who approve the whole EU accesion from TC side, let alone I do not know who is your TC vice president. It is simply very conveninet for you guys to keep TCs out of goverment claiming that they do not want to be a part of it. Actually I can further can say that Annan Plan was actually legitimizing many illegitimate things you have done in our absence, like EU accession.)


1. The TC's refuse to re-join the RoC and take their rightful place in it.

2. Clerides asked the TC's to jointly apply for EU membership. They told us to get lost.

3. Legal, shmegal. If the TC's refuse to co-operate they can't hold hostage everyone else. If the UN thought the RoC was illegal, it would not have accepted it as the legitimate government of the whole island. Consequently the rest of the world recognises the RoC and the puppet state is not. The situation is illegal only in the eyes of Turkey. The rest of the world sees things differently.
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Postby metecyp » Tue Mar 15, 2005 2:56 am

mikkie wrote:If the TC's refuse to co-operate they can't hold hostage everyone else

Similarly, T-Pap cannot hold TCs hostage. We either agree on a solution based on the Annan plan soon or you'll be waiting for an imaginary "European solution" for another 50 years.
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Postby -mikkie2- » Tue Mar 15, 2005 3:28 am

Similarly, T-Pap cannot hold TCs hostage. We either agree on a solution based on the Annan plan soon or you'll be waiting for an imaginary "European solution" for another 50 years.


I think you will find that it is Turkey that is holding yuo hostage!
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Postby metecyp » Tue Mar 15, 2005 3:52 am

mikkie2 wrote:I think you will find that it is Turkey that is holding yuo hostage!

I do realize that Turkey might be keeping TCs as "hostage" until the EU candidacy but at the same time, you can't deny that T-Pap is doing the same thing by saying "A European solution or no solution". I'd rather be a "hostage" of Turkey than accept a so-called "European" solution with minority status.
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Postby cannedmoose » Tue Mar 15, 2005 2:24 pm

Piratis wrote:cannedmoose, by the map I gave, we give up a whole city that was mainly GC (Kerinia), and also about 1/3rd of the coast line. Do you think growing wheat in Mesaria is more important that having hotels on the coast? I don't think so.

As I said before the "canton" system would be the most fair and resources could be distributed 82%-18% easier. But when you have to make it just two parts, then it is not easy. If you want try to do it yourself to see ;)


Not being as much of a web-wizz as you pirati re and not knowing how to get an edited map on here, I've drawn my boundaries in another thread (it's got a link to a detailed map, so you should be able to follow).

On a rough calculation it would result in the following land %'s.

GC CS = approx 65% (so hardly changed)
TC CS = approx 19% (so approximately half current)
British bases = just over 1% (accounting for the reduction cited in the AP)
Federal zones = approximately 15%

It's a rough estimate so don't quote me on those. Tell me how to post an edited pic and I'll photoshop it.
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Postby boulio » Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:29 pm

so what you are saying moose the g/c state stays as it is,but the t/c state is divide in half between t/c component state or canton and the rest of the property would fall to the federal govt.for use by both communities.
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Postby cannedmoose » Tue Mar 15, 2005 8:22 pm

boulio wrote:so what you are saying moose the g/c state stays as it is,but the t/c state is divide in half between t/c component state or canton and the rest of the property would fall to the federal govt.for use by both communities.


Sort of boulio, the boundaries of the GC state would expand into some of the areas currently under TRNC administration and would also encompass the buffer zone territories, however, if you follow the rather complicated path I outlined across the island, these gains would be offset by the 'ceding' of territory to the federal areas, i.e. all of Lefkosia, and Akamas. Similarly the TC CS area would be diminished by the gains stated above as well as the 'ceding' of Karpass and Famagusta to federal control. Indeed the federal zone would be subject to the joint communal chambers, otherwise the CS territories would be under the exclusive domain of each community.

Hope that makes sense, need food... off to dinner finally...
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Postby boulio » Tue Mar 15, 2005 8:24 pm

moose you got to get this visual for us ,on a map.
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