Cyprus-Forum.com

[insan]

I liked it Piratis. Tell me the remaining part of your suggestion....

If the TC state is not much bigger than 18% then even if all refugees return to their homes, the TCs will be the clear majority in their state. This 18% can be made mostly by areas where most villages were traditionally TC villages.

Isn't this %18 pure TC land?

[cannedmoose]

If the TC state is not much bigger than 18% then even if all refugees return to their homes, the TCs will be the clear majority in their state. This 18% can be made mostly by areas where most villages were traditionally TC villages.

Piratis, it's an interesting suggestion. What I'd like to know is where exactly you would choose to define the boundaries. It's easy to say it should be 18% of the island's territory (643sq.m or almost double the area of Kyrenia district), but when you begin to qualify this by saying the boundaries can be drawn around traditionally TC villages you're getting into potentially tricky waters.

The map below (and a similar one from 1960 on kypros.org) shows the ethnic mix in 1973. I think you'll agree that there does exist a cluster pattern running along the Kyrenia range from Karpass through Lefkoniko, down to the area around Athienou, back up to Lefkosia and up to Kyrenia. However, there are also significant clusters around Lefka and Polis and in the Troodos foothills between Lemessos and Pafos (around Agios Thomas and Fasoula). So, where would you draw the line? Or do you see a canton system similar to Switzerland, where the CS's are not contiguous?

[-mikkie2-]

Mikkie2, why do you think the EU had technical staff working with the drafters of the Annan Plan, almost from its inception? It was precisely to ensure its compatibility with the acquis.

This is a wrong analysis of the situation. The Annan plan was designed to LEGALISE the situation before Cyprus joined the EU so that it becomes part of the Acquis. If something is legal in a state then it can be entered as part of the EU Acquis, which is negotiated by every single state in the Union. The Acquis is not some magic formula that was created from day 1. It is something that has evolved over the years as more and more countries became members of the EU to take account of particular circumstances.

Remember the letter that the United Cyprus Republic had to hand to the EU to wipe out all the cases pending in the ECHR? What right is it for anybody to wipe out these cases from a body that is set up to protect human rights?

[cannedmoose]

This is a wrong analysis of the situation. The Annan plan was designed to LEGALISE the situation before Cyprus joined the EU so that it becomes part of the Acquis. If something is legal in a state then it can be entered as part of the EU Acquis, which is negotiated by every single state in the Union. The Acquis is not some magic formula that was created from day 1. It is something that has evolved over the years as more and more countries became members of the EU to take account of particular circumstances.

Sorry mikkie, it's not a 'wrong analysis' whatsoever. The acquis is not simply a collection of all the member states laws, it is a body of common legislation agreed upon by the member states. It contains:

- the content, principles and political objectives of the Treaties (including those of the Treaty of Amsterdam);
- legislation adopted pursuant to the Treaties, and the case law of the Court of Justice;
- statements and resolutions adopted within the Union framework;
joint actions, common positions, declarations, conclusions and other acts within the framework of the common foreign and security policy;
- joint actions, joint positions, conventions signed, resolutions, statements and other acts agreed within the framework of justice and home affairs;
- international Agreements concluded by the Community and those concluded among themselves by the member states with regard to Union activities.

I know also that the acquis is a constantly, daily evolving body of legislation, a body that Cyprus is now involved in adding to as an EU member. By and large, applicant countries do not contribute to the acquis, they are extremely limited in their capacity to 'upload' legislation (see Tanja Borzel's work on Europeanisation for a discussion of this). Instead, candidate states are required in most areas to 'download' the acquis and ensure its integration into domestic law.

As a result of its evolutionary nature, the acquis can absorb new legislation deemed acceptable by the Commission and the member states. The Annan Plan was devised, as David Hannay points out if you read his book, to be compatible with the acquis, sometimes obliquely and imaginatively, but compatible nonetheless. Yes, the Plan circa. April 2004 would require modifications in the light of additions to the acquis, but these would likely be negligible. Therefore, the Annan Plan was and remains legal under EU law.

[Piratis]

Or do you see a canton system similar to Switzerland, where the CS's are not contiguous?

That would be the ideal situation, with some modifications to make the distribution more fair (e.g. the TCs "cantons" in the map you gave get much less than 18% of coast. It could be adjusted so they get 18%)

Or, it could be something like the following, which is not ideal, but it could be workable. (this was just a quick example)

[cannedmoose]

Piratis, thanks for this, and for the comprehensive response (nice map by the way). Firstly it's striking how in the west your map follows almost exactly the contours prescribed by AP(V). What's also striking at first glance is that it doesn't take account of the sizeable pockets of previously TC-dominated territory in the central Mesaoria. So, effectively, going by your map, the GC CS would regain the productive areas around Morphou and Mesaoria. Also, do you not feel that the TC CS would be present in Famagusta?

Your map might be more acceptable if Nicosia and Famagusta (as well as Karpass and Akamas) were designated as federal zones under joint administration.

Anyway, interesting. Be interested to hear (and see ongoing views on this). Get drawing folks!

[Piratis]

cannedmoose, by the map I gave, we give up a whole city that was mainly GC (Kerinia), and also about 1/3rd of the coast line. Do you think growing wheat in Mesaria is more important that having hotels on the coast? I don't think so.

As I said before the "canton" system would be the most fair and resources could be distributed 82%-18% easier. But when you have to make it just two parts, then it is not easy. If you want try to do it yourself to see

[brother]

quote cannedmoose:

Therefore, whether there was a solution before or after, the Annan Plan remains a legal route through EU eyes. Yes, it would require a number of derogations, but these were considered during the drafting phase. The only difference now is that Cyprus has a voice within the EU and would thus be a party to any redrafting as well as a party to the conflict... so some more imagination on the part of the Commission would be required there.


So according to this the new plan would be very biased as the gc would be one of the disputing parties but also one of the block who will asses the final plan, does not sound at all fair to me.

[cannedmoose]

So according to this the new plan would be very biased as the gc would be one of the disputing parties but also one of the block who will asses the final plan, does not sound at all fair to me.

Brother, in theory yes, the RoC government would have a say in the drafting of any new EU-led plan and would therefore have a dual role as producer and executor of such a plan. In practice, I don't think a totally new plan is on the cards... the EU continues to stand by the Annan Plan and will continue to do so as long as it's the only game in town. You might also find that the drafting of any new plan might circumvent the RoC government through an EU special representative working closely with the UN and other interested parties.

However, I think the more both the RoC and TRNC leaders have to do with the drafting (so long as their aim is one of constructive engagement), the better. Many of the problems with the 1960 constitution stemmed from the fact that it was a top-down agreement, imposed on the Cypriot communities from outside, and imposed on the Cypriot people from an albeit reluctant leadership. A solution that all Cypriots can buy into is what we want, and the less involvement that Cypriots themselves have in the formation of such a plan, the less likely it will be to succeed.

I had a thought about a solution last night, I'm still mulling my thoughts on it, but I'll test opinion here on it as soon as it's ready.

[insan]

Many of the problems with the 1960 constitution stemmed from the fact that it was a top-down agreement, imposed on the Cypriot communities from outside, and imposed on the Cypriot people from an albeit reluctant leadership.

Yes. Any solution proposal which didn't/doesn't grant GC community Enosis and full control of Cyprus free from Turkish guarantorship, has been considered as "imposed" and "top-down". Great logic.