Cyprus-Forum.com

[pantelis]

I want as many GCs as possible to return back to the north so I believe I'm being fair.

Who gets to define what is "possible" and is "not possible"?
Erdogan?
The Turkish army?
The Turkish settlers?
The Turkish Cypriots?
The Americans?
The British?
The UN Security council?
Koffi Annan?
The European/World Courts?

Did any of these entities asked the GC refugees to decide who wants to return and live in their properties or who simply wants to be compensated and stay where he is now?

Did they ask them if they simply want their properties back, so they themselves could sell them to the British or any else they would like to?

The Annan plan did not address the GC voters' individual concerns. The GC refugees were given a vague and uncertain formula, regarding their properties.

When people are allowed to make their own choices, they are more likely to do what is right and reasonable, than if some third party predetermines this same "right and reasonable" and attempts to force it on the people, accompanied with warnings and threats.

Those behind the scenes were aware of the psychology of their game; they set the rules, they forced them on the players without addressing the concerns of the people and received the desired result. A stalemate served their interests, at the time. When this 50-year-old stalemate stops serving their interests, they will come up with an acceptable solution for all the people of Cyprus.

As long as these third parties can capitalize on their influence and policy on the Cyprus issue, the "wound" will remain open. No solution to the Cyprus problem, partition or otherwise, would allow the country or any constituent state, to become completely autonomous and independent. The thousands of years of the history of Cyprus, is a testimony to this bitter fact.

[insan]

Pantelis, do you believe that what you are suggesting is something feasible? Let's say, TCs accepted what you have suggested. Majority of GC refugees chose to return and most of the remaining GC refugees chose to sell, rent their properties to wealthy GCs and foreigners who paid far better prices than TCs.


Now assume yourself the Head of the department of TC refugees. There are 150.000 TC refugees that should have been relocated, provided jobs, given public assistance, helped exchange/sell(with market prices) their properties in South... They have school aged kids, handicapped persons etc... Vast majority of these TC refugees want to reside in TCCS...

How would you solve their problems in how many years?

[pantelis]

Now assume yourself the Head of the department of TC refugees. There are 150.000 TC refugees that should have been relocated, provided jobs, given public assistance, helped exchange/sell(with market prices) their properties in South... They have school aged kids, handicapped persons etc... Vast majority of these TC refugees want to reside in TCCS...

This could be a worst case scenario, in theory. In practice, if you don't ask the right people, the right questions, you end up with the wrong answers.

[insan]

Now assume yourself the Head of the department of TC refugees. There are 150.000 TC refugees that should have been relocated, provided jobs, given public assistance, helped exchange/sell(with market prices) their properties in South... They have school aged kids, handicapped persons etc... Vast majority of these TC refugees want to reside in TCCS...

This could be a worst case scenario, in theory. In practice, if you don't ask the right people, the right questions, you end up with the wrong answers.

Pantelis, I've just asked your opinions. It doesn't matter whether your answers might be wrong or correct. Just share your opinions with us, as a compatriot wishing two communities peaceful co-existense. I think you should help us to produce solution formulas.

What is your acceptable case scenario? Or feasible case scenario regarding properties, right to settlement and unrestricted political rights?

[insan]

So, we should give up our legal rights, and you will give up some of your legally baseless demands. I don't know how fair this sounds to you, but to me it sounds very unfair.

We are ready for federation, but you should make an equal amount of real compromises in order to achieve such thing.

Piratis,

- TCs will return %9 of land to GC administartion. This is not a compromise but correction of a mistake. After the ratification of 3rd Vienna Agreement in 1975; TCs should have returned this amount of land to GC administration.

- TCs will invite 70.000 GC refugees to return TCCS(%28.5). 70.000 GC refugees will get all of their properties back. The properties that will be returned to GC refugees, including their state land share; should be no more than %33 of TCCS. This means that, in TCCS; about %60+ of private properties and state land will belong to TCs and about %31+ of private properties and state land will belong to GC refugees. And the rest of the private properties will belong to foreign residents of TCCS.The remaining 50.000 GC refugees, most probably would sell their properties in North and buy/rent new houses in South or keep their properties as a second home/holiday home. If GC occupiers have made any investment on TC properties, GC occupiers should be compensated and paid the difference by the original TC owners when the TC owner will ask his/her property to be returned. Likewise if the TC occupiers have made any investment on GC properties in the last 30 years; original GC owners should compensate the TC occupiers to get his/her invested property back from TC occupier. I'm not sure if there is anything here compromised by any side because this was one of the obligation of TC side, according to 3rd Vienna Agreement.

- About 1/3 of TCs will become refugees. Most probably 20.000 TC refugees would return to their properties in South. The remaining 50.000 TC refugees, most probably would sell their properties in South and buy/rent new houses in North. If TC occupiers have made any investment on GC properties, TCs should be compensated and paid the difference by the original GC owners. Likewise if the GCs have made any investment on TC properties in the last 30 or 40 years; original TC owners should compensate the GC occupiers to get his/her invested property back from GC occupier and vice versa.


- The damaged and demolished properties should be compensated by the responsible individuals or responsible constituent states or responsible 3rd parties.


- The right to become permenant resident of other constituent state with full political rights should be restricted with %33. The ratio between the number of permenant residents of two communities in each constituent state must not exceed 1/3.


- The permemnant GC residents of TCCS should be given excatly the same "political equality" at constituent state level that TC community and GC community would be given at federal level, per Annan Plan. As long as the number of permemnant TC residents of GCCS have not constituted 1/4 of the total number of GC residents of GCCS; they will be treated like equal citizens of United Cyprus.


- Turkey should be responsible of relocation, repatriation, compensation and rehabilitation of settlers. Settlers should be treated as the caretaker occupiers of GC properties and if the settlers have made any investments on GC properties in the past 30 years; the compensation of the investment should be paid by the original GC owner when he/she will ask the return of his/her property.

[MicAtCyp]

I said many times in this forum that a bizonal Federation cannot be acieved without violating the basic human rights of GCs.I analysed this many times no need to repeat it. On the other hand any solution either Federal or Unitary state will always be bizonal because of the facts, in the sense the vast majority of the TCs will be living in the northern part.

As long as the first step in a solution will be the exchange of equal TC-Gc properties the left over of GC properties is the only thing that will potentially attract GC refugees to return. Assuming all GC refugees eventually do return to this left over of properties, and assumung the land of the TCCS will be as per Anan Plan then we may have a problem of a clear TC majority. So the % of TCCS must be reduced to be as close as their actual population as possible i.e near to 18%.

Now we are in Europe. It is completely impossible to have a solution violating human rights in advance.What we can have is a solution that will make the practicing of these rights unwise or un-propable. What I mean every GC should be able to return or go live in Kyrenia, the same way I myself can abandon Nicosia and go live in Paphos. However unless I have land to develop or property of my own to stay, I have no reason to go live in Paphos. In the same way I don't see any reason why any GC NON refugee would go live in Kyrenia. Furthermore, I bet everyone that not even half the GC refugees will return. Most of them today are between 50-70 y.o, Now you ask yourselves if their children will ever wish to go there.

When people are allowed to make their own choices, they are more likely to do what is right and reasonable

Exactly!!

[cannedmoose]

Now we are in Europe. It is completely impossible to have a solution violating human rights in advance.What we can have is a solution that will make the practicing of these rights unwise or un-propable. What I mean every GC should be able to return or go live in Kyrenia, the same way I myself can abandon Nicosia and go live in Paphos. However unless I have land to develop or property of my own to stay, I have no reason to go live in Paphos. In the same way I don't see any reason why any GC NON refugee would go live in Kyrenia. Furthermore, I bet everyone that not even half the GC refugees will return. Most of them today are between 50-70 y.o, Now you ask yourselves if their children will ever wish to go there.

MicAtCyp, I just wanted to congratulate you on what I think is one of the best posts I've seen on here in quite a while. You pretty much summed up in one paragraph why future human rights violations in Cyprus are unlikely and why a future shift of population is also unlikely. I still think that population controls will be imposed in any agreement, but I do agree with your assertion that short of a massive economic shift on the island, the majority of people will stay-put. Many refugees have forged rich lives for themselves and it's unlikely they're going to give that up and move back to the village.

Excellent post re.

[insan]

Many refugees have forged rich lives for themselves and it's unlikely they're going to give that up and move back to the village.

What about their children? Or other GCs who might like to buy those lands/properties and restore/build new village homes for themselves.

[-mikkie2-]

Many refugees have forged rich lives for themselves and it's unlikely they're going to give that up and move back to the village.

This I'm afraid is a load of rubbish Cannedmoose. You have obvioulsy not visited the many refugee housing estates where people have not particularly forged rich lives for themselves! Those that did forge rich lives for themselves are the ones that left Cyprus.

I challenge anyone here to show that the refugees have no reason to want their old properties back. These arguments are EXCUSES for compromising the human rights of Cypriots in the interests of political expediency. Even GC refugees in the UK want their land back from my experience and they would jump at the chance to go back.

Cannedmoose, read MicAtCyp's post properly. He is correct in saying that many refugees may not want to return but he is also saying that they should be given the choice to return or not.

I would bet that economics will be the biggest single influence in shaping how Cyprus will develop internally. Try stopping people from going to work in the other state or stopping them from settling without rights in the other state. It would be a total mess and we would probably be ejected from the EU because of it!

[metecyp]

What I mean every GC should be able to return or go live in Kyrenia, the same way I myself can abandon Nicosia and go live in Paphos. However unless I have land to develop or property of my own to stay, I have no reason to go live in Paphos.

I live in Nicosia with my parents but one day when I have my own house, I would like to live in Kyrenia because I like the environment in Kyrenia much better than Nicosia, especially in the summer. I'm sure many GC refugees and non-refugees will feel the same way after a solution. If there's no restriction on refugee return and percentage of GCs in TCCS state, how are we going to maintain a bizonal federation? What's the point of calling a zone TCCS if TCs are minority in that zone and they own less land/house/business than GCs in that zone?

As you said, there needs to be restrictions for a bizonal federation to work. We either accept this and talk about how to achieve federation, or we don't accept any restrictions, in that case, unitary state is the name of the game. Again, GCs have to tell us what they want, what's acceptable, that's what we've been waiting for since last April.