Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

-mikkie2-

You want to 'win' and you wish us to 'loose'.

Its not a football match winners and loosers, I dont see it that way at all and I think most TCs would agree with me. I see it has how can we share/live on this island together without threatening each other be it a comprehensive solution vs recognition of partition.

[erolz]

The Cypriots in other counrties support the 3 R's as they are called.

Rightly or wrongly TC consider there is another 'fourth item' on their list of desires - namely to reduce the TC community to that of a politcal minority aginst the TC will and against the 1960 agreements on which an indpendent Cyprus was based. Maybe these fears are 'paranoid' but when GC (and Greeks) come here and explain that anything other than one person one vote in Cyprus is undemocratic and not a 'true democracy' (despite the glaringly obvious examples where this is not the case elsewhere - yet are accepted as 'democratic' systems) it seems there is much good reason for this 'paranoia'.

[Realist]

Insan, I totally agree there is common ground between GC and Greeks, there is a sense of solidarity for Hellenism. But I also believe there is common ground between GC and TC, there is also common ground between TC and Turkey. This is also understandable and is totally acceptable due to TC history. But as Cypriots the solidarity between GC and TC should come first. Now this may be a dream, but for any workable solution to work then this has to be realised.

Regarding the right wing political parties, I believe that DISY on the Greek side falls quite comfortably under the term 'conservative party' now during the Annan vote, this party was the strongest advocate of the 'Yes' campaign. Now if there was some hidden agenda in the right wing parties why would they advocate the Annan Plan. Also if Greece has this right wing agenda, why is it officially supporting Turkey's accession into the EU.


With regards to how the EU functions the one nation veto clause was implace to ensure that EU laws did not infringe on the national interests of each sovereign state until full intergration was achieved. There are no Veto privilages for the varying groups within each state. As the EU moves closer toward full union then the Veto clause will be removed (moves which have already begun to be taken by the increased power of the European Parliament which has proportionate representation). If the EU does become one country then I would totally support proportionate represntation.

The UN is not a single state, the EU is still not a single state, if Cypriots want reunification then that denotes a Cyprus as single state, therefore proportionate representation should apply. (If both sides truely want to live together then this should not be a problem as there would be common goals and desires).

[insan]

The Cypriots in other counrties support the 3 R's as they are called.

Return of Refugees
Return of Settlers
Return of Turkish forces

Those are the three key things that Cypriots lobby for. Anything else is just pure conspiracy theories as circulating in the mind of Insan and which he extensively propagates through this forum.

Insan, you can repeat your views 1000's of times but it makes not 1 bit of difference. You cannot persuade me or any other GC that your 'theories' hold water. What it boils down to is that you wish to ignore the concerns of your GC compatriots in order to further the cause of TC's. You want to 'win' and you wish us to 'loose'. That is how it comes across. In any case, these things will come out in the wash during the next round of negotiations and then we shall genuinely see who is right and who is wrong.

The 1974 Turkish invasion finished the ethnic-cleansing process by victimizing both Turkish and Greek Cypriots, and the current occupation is serving ONLY the military and geopolitical interests of TURKEY.

Nowadays Turkish-Cypriots are minority even in the occupied areas where settlers from mainland Turkey are being transferred to change the demographics of the occupied areas of Cyprus.

Turkish-Cypriots are forced to leave Cyprus. Some of them seek shelter and protection in the free areas of Cyprus, controlled by the Government of Cyprus recognized by the whole world, where they enjoy all freedoms and economic prosperity. All of them that request it, are issued Cyprus passports since they are legal citizens of Cyprus.

The real and barbaric face of Turkish occupying army can never be hidden. Turkey claimed that the 1974 invasion against the small island nation of Cyprus was done to "save" the Turkish Cypriots from the Greek-Cypriots!!! How can Turkey explain this? Why Turkish-Cypriots are coming to the free areas of Cyprus and live with Greek-Cypriots? The reason is because they try to save themselves from Turkey. Turkey is occupying Cyprus to serve ONLY Turkish interests and not Turkish-Cypriot or Greek-Cypriot interests.

We demand the immediate withdrawal of ALL Turkish Troops from Cyprus, the withdrawal of ALL illegal settlers from our towns and villages, and the SAFE return of ALL 200,000 Greek-Cypriots refugees back in their homes, and land.

We Demand TURKISH TROOPS AND SETTLERS OUT OF CYPRUS, AND RETURN OF ALL REFUGEES BACK TO THEIR HOMES.

We demand Justice and Re-unification of Cyprus.

http://www.kypros.org/Occupied_Cyprus/o ... ctives.htm










3 R's of Hellenic Lobbyists

http://www.lobbyforcyprus.org/


In other words they want:

- Relocation of all TCs.

- Remilitarization of Cyprus including 17.000 National Guard and 4000 Eldik; reinforced by EU forces.(With one absent Brit troops)

- Rehellenization of Cyprus



American Hellenic Institute statement

Demand the restoration of constitutional government for all of Cyprus based on majority rule, the rule of law, and protection of minority rights

http://www.ahiworld.com/072000.html

A free united Cyprus, without Turkish troops, Turkish colonists and the Green Line, and with a “constitutional democracy based on majority rule, the rule of law, and the protection of minority rights….free from the threat of war,” as proposed by Bush 41 in July 1988, would be in the best interest of the U.S. and of Israel as it would be (1) a beacon of liberty, freedom and democracy and (2) would prevent there ever being an extremist Muslim territory on Cyprus which could threaten Israel.


Gene Rossides is President
of the American Hellenic Institute and
former Assistant Secretary of the Treasury

http://www.hellenicnews.com/readnews.ht ... 26&lang=US


Everything is crystal clear mikkie. I can't understand why are you still trying to conceal the truths. I said many times that there's nothing wrong for lobbying struggling for what you believe is correct and just. However, in my opinion; those lobbying organizations are exploiting the weaknesses and nationalistic sentiments of thousands of Hellenes. They abuse the good will of "ordinary" Hellenes for their self interests. On the other hand they seriously undermine the rapproachment and reconciliation of two communities.

[insan]

Insan, I totally agree there is common ground between GC and Greeks, there is a sense of solidarity for Hellenism. But I also believe there is common ground between GC and TC, there is also common ground between TC and Turkey. This is also understandable and is totally acceptable due to TC history. But as Cypriots the solidarity between GC and TC should come first. Now this may be a dream, but for any workable solution to work then this has to be realised.

I completely agree with you.

Regarding the right wing political parties, I believe that DISY on the Greek side falls quite comfortably under the term 'conservative party' now during the Annan vote, this party was the strongest advocate of the 'Yes' campaign. Now if there was some hidden agenda in the right wing parties why would they advocate the Annan Plan.

Don't forget the split group of DESI.

Also if Greece has this right wing agenda, why is it officially supporting Turkey's accession into the EU

It may be(highly possible because many Greek Statesman cleraly reaffirmed that they were in full concensus and they have a common strategy for the "solution" of Cyprus problem) a part of the strategic game of Hellenic Ruling Elite. And EU is the only place where GC administration and Greek government can corner Turkey to get what they want with contribution of Christian Democrats; aka EPP.

[erolz]

With regards to how the EU functions the one nation veto clause was implace to ensure that EU laws did not infringe on the national interests of each sovereign state until full intergration was achieved. There are no Veto privilages for the varying groups within each state. As the EU moves closer toward full union then the Veto clause will be removed (moves which have already begun to be taken by the increased power of the European Parliament which has proportionate representation). If the EU does become one country then I would totally support proportionate represntation.

The UN is not a single state, the EU is still not a single state, if Cypriots want reunification then that denotes a Cyprus as single state, therefore proportionate representation should apply. (If both sides truely want to live together then this should not be a problem as there would be common goals and desires).

If the argument is that the 'ideal' (its principal and foundation) of democracy is different within a federal union of component states in one nation than between a union of nation states - then I can accept your argument - though I disagree with it and personally consider it a weak argument of convience. Where I have a much bigger problem is when GC insist that 'democracy' is a single ideal universaly applicable and that TC desires for Cyprus are contrary to this universal ideal - yet the UN and EU are not.

So what do you consider about the disproprtional representation the RoC has as far as MEP's go? Do you think it undemocratic that the UK gets one MEP per 800,000 people and the RoC gets one for every 120,000 people? Is such disproprtionate representation unfair and undemocratic? Will you be persuing this 'inequlity' with the same vigour you do with reagrd to proposed Cypriot federal solutions? A GC vote worth 7-8 times more than a UK citizens vote. How undemocratic. How unfair. I am surprised you could even bring yourselves to join such a union - give the great passion GC have for 'true democracy'.

I appologise in advance for the sarcastic nature of the last part of this post. My only 'defence' and I admit not a good one is that we have covered this ground so many times - yet the idea that anything other than direct one person one vote is undemocratic and asking for something that does not exist _in principal_ anywhere else and against the very _concept_ of democracy just keep comming back - over and over again. The fact is that disproprtional representation exists in MANY other places - both within (federal) states and between unions of nation states as well as in many many other entites that involve assosiations of 'groups' and none of these are considered undemocratic on principal- only in Cyprus is such a determination made. So appologies for letting my frustration 'taint' my post. I am trying to not let this happen. Really I am.

[Realist]

Dont't worry erolz ,no offence taken here.

To be honest if that is the case in the EU then no I don't agree, RoC should have only one MEP if Britain has 1 per 800 000. How did we manage to do that?

[erolz]

Dont't worry erolz ,no offence taken here.

To be honest if that is the case in the EU then no I don't agree, RoC should have only one MEP if Britain has 1 per 800 000. How did we manage to do that?

Well the RoC did not have to 'do' anything to achieve this disparity. It has always been the case in the EU that smaller states get disproportionate political representation in this regard vs the larger states. Basically the EU seems to undertsand and accept the concerns of potential domination of the EU by larger states and has structured itself on this understanding. At the end of the day the larger states still carry disprortionate 'weight' in europe mainly through their 'economic' power and the benefits to all of the EU structure is consider to be worth the 'necessity' of such an 'unfair' structure. In this sense a 'European' approach to the Cyprus problem would be most welcome - thought clearly this interpretation of what a 'European' appraoch means can differ vastly from this.

[boulio]

i thought it was a big greek conspiracy,even the trnc will have two mps in the parliment and there not even a country they think they are but there not,by the way has the two seats that are allocated to the t/c been filled or are you playing recognition games again?

[-mikkie2-]

Maybe these fears are 'paranoid' but when GC (and Greeks) come here and explain that anything other than one person one vote in Cyprus is undemocratic and not a 'true democracy' (despite the glaringly obvious examples where this is not the case elsewhere - yet are accepted as 'democratic' systems) it seems there is much good reason for this 'paranoia'.

The democratic ideal is one man one vote, but in Cypru sI think most of us agree that a federation will result so we will be bound by the parameters of a federal solution. That is accepted by the vast majority of GC's.