Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz]

Just been reading the this thread thought I'd try to answer insan.

Hi and welcome to the forum.

I can understand why Insan may recall the EOKA B inspired campaign for 'enosis', but the EOKA B was originally sponsored by foreign powers. Just like the Turk Mukavemet Teskilati which was founded in the 50's which not only targeted GC, but TC as well. These organisations were tools for creating tension between the two sides so that the interests of the Great Powers were carried out - 'Divide and Rule'.

Do you not think that GC wanting ENOSIS and not Cypriot independance when Britain left Cyprus was not a cause (the major cause?) of tension between the two communites? Outside powers did not create the tensions between GC and TC - Cypriots created those. Outside powers certainly have exploited these tensions in the past to varying degrees - but they did not create them. Cypriots created them.

To add to this, in resent times the notion of 'enosis' has been more regularly voiced by Turkey. How long has it been since headlines read "Turkey will anex Northern Cyprus if RoC joins the EU". I think TC should be more concerned that they don't end up a province of Turkey proper in everything but name.

Enoses is a dream for whoever want's to believe it, that goes for both GC and TC. Cyprus is too important as a military base for it to come under the total control of either Turkey or Greece.

So don't worry Insan, your nightmares will never become a reality.

As I TC I do not worry about Enosis today. What I worry about is the principal that Enosis was based on - namely that GC alone should effectively decide Cyprus' future and that there should be no requirment on the GC community to consider TC communites desires or wishes with rgeard for Cyprus. So whilst I have no concern re ENOSIS - I still have concerns that GC do not agree or accept that they should have to (rather than just choose to or not) consider and respect TC communites desire re Cyprus' future - as it is our shared homeland. That is my concern today. In the past Enosis was an example of a GC desire to determine Cyprus' fate and future without any consideration for TC which they shared Cyprus with - and showed a willingness to use opression and violenece to achieve this right of GC alone to determin Cyprus' future. My concern is that while Enosis may no longer be a GC desire, the desire to control Cyprus without any let or hinderance from the TC community or regard for the TC communites desires remains.

[Realist]

Hello erolz and thanks for the welcome.

I agree that outside powers did exploit the already entrenched ideas of some. However, I don't believe that these ideas would have eased in time had it not been for the violent actions orchastrated by these externally backed movements. These helped escalate the situation so that many began to feel uneasy about living and working together. In fact when the 1960 constitution was created (by the British government of the time) it was done so in a way that would ensure the maximum devisions between the two communities. Labour Trade Unions were the only organisational links between the two as even schooling was seperate.

With regards to GC not recognising and respecting the rights of TC, I think we should look at the current situation. On the GC side TC are allowed to live and work, the mosques in the RoC controlled areas are not only respected but are maintained. The road names of Turkish quarters have also been maintained, in the parliament 24 seats remain empty as a sign that there is still part of the Cypriot community not present during proceedings. Why are there no similar situation on the North of the island?

I totally agree that everyones civil liberties and human rights and the way in which they wish to live should be respected. With reference to GC deciding the islands future so far I all I can see is the majority of both GC and TC just want to get on with living their lives peacefully.

Just want to clarify, can you mention what GC policies are deemed to be bad for the island and disregard TC? I just want to try and understand your concerns.

It also saddens me to note that you avoided mentioning any wrong doing by the TC side. I think if there is ever going to be a workable solution we need to be honest about not only what has happened in the past, but what is happening now and why.

[brother]

Hi realist,
and welcome to the forum, do not be saddened but many tc on this forum are open minded and do acknowledgr the suffering of the gc and the wrong doings of turkish millatary forces etc. but you will see this over time as you post and chat more on the forum.

[insan]

Hi realist. Welcome to the forum;

I agree that outside powers did exploit the already entrenched ideas of some. However, I don't believe that these ideas would have eased in time had it not been for the violent actions orchastrated by these externally backed movements.

In my opinion, Left-wing, right-wing strife within each communities that was ideologically connected to their western masters cannot be confused with the inter-communal strife that was first appeared in early 1900s as a part of Hellenic National Cause "megali idea".

These helped escalate the situation so that many began to feel uneasy about living and working together. In fact when the 1960 constitution was created (by the British government of the time) it was done so in a way that would ensure the maximum devisions between the two communities. Labour Trade Unions were the only organisational links between the two as even schooling was seperate.

I'm not agree with this interpretation. The 1960's RoC structure was based upon the interests of all relevant parties. "Political equality" of two communities was a demand of Turkish side and they managed to get this right during the London-Zurich negotiations. The Greek demand was "majority rule" but Greek side couldn't manage to get this right during the negotiations. If you don't believe fairness of "political equality" of two communities, that's another issue.

With regards to GC not recognising and respecting the rights of TC, I think we should look at the current situation. On the GC side TC are allowed to live and work, the mosques in the RoC controlled areas are not only respected but are maintained. The road names of Turkish quarters have also been maintained, in the parliament 24 seats remain empty as a sign that there is still part of the Cypriot community not present during proceedings. Why are there no similar situation on the North of the island?

"RoC" claims that it represents whole Island and its people. GC administration, in fact did some things in favour of Tsome TCs, in frame with its known political stance. "As long as they obbey our rules, give them the minimum for satisfaction and use them for propaganda to show the world how 10.000s of TCs can happily live as a minority in a GC state."

There are similar situations on the North of the Island as well. There are 650 GCs have been living in North and recently they have been built a school. Do the TCs in south have a TC school? Would any GC like to come and work in North? why don't they come and apply for the jobs available in the North? The mosques in the South maintained with international funds in frame of a project named "protection of cultural structure of old cities" or something like that... but not only the mosques restored but the churches in North as well... Tassos stance concerning a TC school in South, clearly shows us that a TC school in south is not in frame of Tassos' startegy.

I totally agree that everyones civil liberties and human rights and the way in which they wish to live should be respected. With reference to GC deciding the islands future so far I all I can see is the majority of both GC and TC just want to get on with living their lives peacefully.

I too, completely agree.

Just want to clarify, can you mention what GC policies are deemed to be bad for the island and disregard TC? I just want to try and understand your concerns.

Simply everything has been built upon "a GC state with TC minority granted full human rights."

It also saddens me to note that you avoided mentioning any wrong doing by the TC side. I think if there is ever going to be a workable solution we need to be honest about not only what has happened in the past, but what is happening now and why.

If retaliation to Enosis and majority rule constitute a wrong-doing, Turkish side did wrongs as much as the Greek side did.

[erolz]

However, I don't believe that these ideas would have eased in time had it not been for the violent actions orchastrated by these externally backed movements.

I assume you mean that you do believe these ideas would have eased in time? I find this hard to believe. The fact is that as Cyprus was to gain its freedom from British colonialism the two communites in Cyprus had totaly opposed views on what a future Cyprus should be like. I find it hard to believe that without any external interferance that the GC community would have be any less desirous of ENOSIS or that the TC would be any less determined to resist it.

In fact when the 1960 constitution was created (by the British government of the time) it was done so in a way that would ensure the maximum devisions between the two communities.

I personaly do not accept that the 1960 agreements were designed to ensure maximum division. I believe they were designed to try and reconcile the two diametricaly opposed wishes of the two main communites in Cyprus, in a framework that with good will, mutual respect and a genuine desire on both sides could lead to the creation of a true Cypriot idenitity and nation. However there was not good will, mutual respect and a genuine desire to create a united Cypriot nation and identitiy. That is why the 1960 agreements roke down imo .

With regards to GC not recognising and respecting the rights of TC, I think we should look at the current situation.

You have to make a distinction between the rights of indivduals and the rights of communites / peoples. It is possible to respect the rights of indivduals at the same times as denying the rights of those indivduals respective communites.

I totally agree that everyones civil liberties and human rights and the way in which they wish to live should be respected.

See above.

With reference to GC deciding the islands future so far I all I can see is the majority of both GC and TC just want to get on with living their lives peacefully.

That is probably true but TC do have concerns that a GC majority may wish to impose on the TC community things that are simply not accpetable to the TC community. These concerns stem from a past where GC tried to do exactly this.

Just want to clarify, can you mention what GC policies are deemed to be bad for the island and disregard TC? I just want to try and understand your concerns.

Historicaly GC tried to impose ENOSIS on TC in Cyprus - against their will and with total disregard for TC wishes and concerns. If TC had not resisted this imposition and the world recognised their right to resist it then Cyprus would not exist today as a nation. It would exist as a region of Greece.
I believe it is true that GC, having been saved from Enosis by TC resistance in the past, no longer today seriously wish for Enosis in the form it took in the 1960. However that does not mean I can forsee no future senario whereby a GC political majority may try and impose things on the TC community that are against the will and interests of the TC community.

It also saddens me to note that you avoided mentioning any wrong doing by the TC side. I think if there is ever going to be a workable solution we need to be honest about not only what has happened in the past, but what is happening now and why.

I am in general trying to avoid laying one sided blame. I do not always sucseed in doing this. I do not deny what has happened in Cyprus and the part played in this by TC and Turkey - along with GC, Greece the UK the US and others. No side is totaly innocent and no side is totaly guilty. I have my own views about what proportion of blame attributes to whom in the various periods - as no doubt you do.

[Realist]

Brother, Insan, Erolz:

Well I'll say this, at least your all open minded enough to discuss the issues. I think overall it's a shame things ended up the way they have.

[magikthrill]

Nevertheles; 30.000 GCs have been residing in Greece and they have a Pan-Hellenic Federation and many organizations that are also lobbying for national cause of Hellenes.

Now, either that Greek landlord represents Greek people or the Greeks who organize 30.000 GCs in Greece.

Moreover, there are 17.000 Greeks and it is said that there are some 45.000 Pontian Greek residents in Cyprus.

I'm looking forward to hear your analysis about these situations, magikthrill.

Sorry for the late reply Ive been travelling the past 10 days.

I dont understand your post. How does that greek landlord represent the Greeks who organize 30000 gcs in greece?

as far as the greek residents in cyprus, piratis response regarding uk residents suffices. A

re you sneaky GCs actually planning enosis with the UK? At least you drive on the same side of the road with them so it might actually be easier!

[insan]

re you sneaky GCs actually planning enosis with the UK?

They are not stupid to plan Enosis with the UK but they are exerting great effort to serve their master's scheme to make their dreams come true. A Greek Cypriot State with a Turkish minority, return of all refugees, nullification of 60 treaties and agreements. But you are trying to twist the facts in order to conceal the naked truth.

[cannedmoose]

re you sneaky GCs actually planning enosis with the UK? At least you drive on the same side of the road with them so it might actually be easier!

Sounds like a plan to me magik!

[Realist]

Insan,

I still don't understand how you wish a demorcacy to work if you do not acknoledge that there is a physical Greek Cypriot majority, and therefore should have a proportionate say in the running of their lives. Now everywhere else in the free world this is a perfectly acceptable concept.

Why should the voice of 18% of the population be louder then 78%. There is no way this can be justified, and constitutes to nothing more then a Dictatorship.

There is nothing steaky about wanted true democracy.