Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

Actually it wasn't essentially any different what TCs have in 60s agreements and what would they have had with the Annan Plan. Only distinction is instead of vesting the veto power to president and vice president; it was wested to Senate and Presidential Council in Annan Plan. It is clear what we TCs think about "political equality" of two communities. Excatly the same rights that GC senators and GC members of presidential council would have had per Annan Plan.

If thats the way you see it then you answered your own question. As you see, you can return to the RoC, take all your rights, and we will take all our rights and property as well. Problem solved.

However it seems to me you want us to make important compromises from our legal and human rights, while you make non. You want something different from 1960 agreements and this different you want it to be better for you and worst for us. Why should we accept such change? Because you have more power? And what will happen when the balance of power will change?

[insan]

Actually it wasn't essentially any different what TCs have in 60s agreements and what would they have had with the Annan Plan. Only distinction is instead of vesting the veto power to president and vice president; it was wested to Senate and Presidential Council in Annan Plan. It is clear what we TCs think about "political equality" of two communities. Excatly the same rights that GC senators and GC members of presidential council would have had per Annan Plan.

If thats the way you see it then you answered your own question. As you see, you can return to the RoC, take all your rights, and we will take all our rights and property as well. Problem solved.

However it seems to me you want us to make important compromises from our legal and human rights, while you make non.

We ask for the most feasible one under the current circumstances. After the huge sufferings of past and 30 years of efforts to build themselves a new life in a terror free area; you tell us let's all move to our original places and reestablish the state of affairs according to original? RoC constitution. This means 4/5 of TCs will become refugees one more time and feel like the aliens with lots of questiones, fears, concerns for their future, in their minds and hearts.

You want something different from 1960 agreements and this different you want it to be better for you and worst for us. Why should we accept such change?

This is your interpretation. It does not mean that it is true. For decades you based your expectations upon your dreams not the realities and being a "politically equal" partner of TC community.

Because you have more power? And what will happen when the balance of power will change

What if the balance of power becomes more in favour of us and against you? You think Turkey will invade South, too.

[Piratis]

After the huge sufferings of past and 30 years

Oh really? Well, our suffering was 100 times more. So why we should be punished and you reworded? Sorry, no deal.

Papadopoulos knows something when he doesn't even bother to talk to you. First step is recognition of RoC by Oct. 3rd. The next steps will follow and Turkey will be forced to make real compromises either they like it or not.

[Saint Jimmy]

For decades you based your expectations upon your dreams not the realities

This, I believe, perfectly sums up our situation, on the 'ordinary GC people' level. We are still there, I think.

[pantelis]

We are still there, I think.

Speak for yourself...Jim!

[Saint Jimmy]

We are still there, I think.

Speak for yourself...Jim!

I am, man. There's no need for you to get touchy...
In my opinion, GCs still live in this dream that our leadership has emblazoned on our brains, that 'all refugees will get to go home', that 'we'll get to go back to 14 July 1974', and more of this horses**t.
If you disagree, you are perfectly entitled to post your disagreement here, and I have no objection to it.

[Piratis]

In my opinion, GCs still live in this dream that our leadership has emblazoned on our brains, that 'all refugees will get to go home', that 'we'll get to go back to 14 July 1974', and more of this horses**t.

I am not saying that we can get these things today. Obviously not. What I am saying is that we are the only ones who are asked to make huge compromises because we are the weak. And this is unfair. Some "realists" will say: "Sure it is unfair, but tough luck. You have to face the realities".

However the lesson from this is that "realities" are higher than what is legal, higher than human rights, higher than EU laws etc. So please tell me why in lets say 30 years from now when the balance of power will change I should not support a change of these "realities"? What will keep us from doing so? The laws and what we signed? But those apparently mean nothing!

I am just telling to our TC friends that if they do not treat us fairly now, we will not treat them fairly in the future and the circle of blood will continue.

So forcing one side to accept "realities" is not the solution, is just part of the problem, which inevitably will lead to more bloodshed in the future.

Personally I don't like such kind of agreements. However part of the "yes" voters like them. They think: "lets get what we can now, lets put the seed of Hellenism back to the north, and this way in the future it will be easier to get what we want". These "realists" know that agreements and laws mean very little compared to "realities".

However I want a fair agreement that will be able to last for centuries and create in Cyprus something strong that will bring prosperity to all Cypriots. I believe that good agreements make the good friends. Bad agreements don't make friends, and the next disaster is just waiting for us.

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

However part of the "yes" voters like them. They think: "lets get what we can now, lets put the seed of Hellenism back to the north, and this way in the future it will be easier to get what we want".

You are so right about this point and that is why I feel partition is the only way both sides can have a solution that will not erupt in our faces in the future. We all show signs that we are trying to get the upper hand. TCs should give GCs what they really want LAND not unification with TCs and GCs should give TCs what they really want their own recognised country without GCs.

In my own thread "Is Division the best solution???" no one could argue otherwise which only confirms that we Cypriots are not tollerant and understanding of each other so we should be moving towards partition as soon as possible and then we will have a viable and just solution as Mr Papaop says. The support for partition has gained momentum since the referendum and has time passes more and more people will come to see that this is the best solution for all concerned.

[metecyp]

I am just telling to our TC friends that if they do not treat us fairly now, we will not treat them fairly in the future and the circle of blood will continue.

Fair according to whom? According to you, anything beyond "Return of All Refugees" and "One man one vote" is not fair. For some maximalist TC, anything beyond "Two independent states" is not fair. But both you and the maximalist TC are dreaming, not taking in the realities of today into account, not compromising. I want as many GCs as possible to return back to the north so I believe I'm being fair. In return I'm asking you to be fair and accept that a bizonal bicommunal federation is the way forward even though it might mean some restriction on GC refugee rights. But if you define "fairness" as fulfillment of all your demands and if we don't grant you all your demands, we're "unfair", then I can't do anything for you.

So forcing one side to accept "realities" is not the solution, is just part of the problem, which inevitably will lead to more bloodshed in the future.

I'm asking both sides to accept realities. If we're talking about a bicommunal bizonal federation, your side has to realize that "All refugees return", etc is just a dream. My side has to realize that two seperate states is just a dream as well. But what you claim is your dream is fine because it's legal and my dream is nonsense because it's not legal. This has nothing to do with the argument, they are both dreams when you start talking about bizonal federation.

[Piratis]

So, we should give up our legal rights, and you will give up some of your legally baseless demands. I don't know how fair this sounds to you, but to me it sounds very unfair.

We are ready for federation, but you should make an equal amount of real compromises in order to achieve such thing.

So are you willing to give up some of your legal rights too? Because whenever I mention something like that you respond "oh, but thats worst than 1960". Apparently for you everything should be better than 1960, and for us everything worst. Sorry but its not going to work like that. You get something, you give something. If you don't want to give, then you will not get.