Cyprus-Forum.com

[zan]

I am still a little confused as to how many different directions you guys are coming at this from....If we take the point that the EU opens the doors for people to live where they want within the community then why are the settlers a problem.......Of course the fact that the Tcs will become a minority is inevitable but that is the reason why all TCs from all over the world should apply for citizenship.....As far as I know this is possible and am in the process of doing so....Next summer....

Italy has got the rights to throw out all undesirables from it's shores and Britain is expected to follow....Soon we will be building walls as high as the ones in Rio to keep them out....

[Nikitas]

Zan,

The settlers are a problem precisely because they are settlers who come in with the mentality of a settler. The closest similar example in modern times are the Jewish settlers on Palestinian land. In addition they are not EU citizens who are changing residence within the EU and contribute their skills and investment to Cyprus.

Copperline above mentions the need that Turkish Cypriots feel for protection. Well, in that case let us have a Turkish Cypriot army to protect them. It is not an ideal state of affairs to live feeling a constant threat but that should also allow you to understand the other side's point of vew, it is after all the Greek side that faces four divisions of troops supported by the full weight of a NATO air force and navy. If the army is made of Turkish Cypriots it would afford the protection TCs need and not offend the GCs as a foreign occupier.

[zan]

Zan,

The settlers are a problem precisely because they are settlers who come in with the mentality of a settler. The closest similar example in modern times are the Jewish settlers on Palestinian land. In addition they are not EU citizens who are changing residence within the EU and contribute their skills and investment to Cyprus.

Copperline above mentions the need that Turkish Cypriots feel for protection. Well, in that case let us have a Turkish Cypriot army to protect them. It is not an ideal state of affairs to live feeling a constant threat but that should also allow you to understand the other side's point of vew, it is after all the Greek side that faces four divisions of troops supported by the full weight of a NATO air force and navy. If the army is made of Turkish Cypriots it would afford the protection TCs need and not offend the GCs as a foreign occupier.

So the ontians are a great source of pain for you guys then and the Armenians and everyone else that settled after 1963???????They seem to be included in all the polls so I am guessing no....

Now you facing four divisions and we facing a common defence policy of the "RoC" and Greece........How about us having one with Turkey then.....Seems we are back to the Zurich agreement that you guys keep telling us will not work.....

[Piratis]

Tim I agree with most of what you said, but I think the biggest factor was not touched.

The "Cyprus problem" as we know it today is simply the modern version of the same problem we had in Cyprus for centuries: Foreigners ruling our island instead of allowing Cypriots to do so.

The difference is that in the modern day of "UN", "human rights", "international law" and all the other nice phrases, the empires of today can't just invade and enslave others, they need some excuse to do so.

The USA for example has invented the "Weapons of Mass Destruction" and the "Terrorism" threats, so they can send their troops around the globe to "save the world and bring democracy".

In the case of Cyprus the excuse to deny Cypriots their self-determination so they could slice our island up and use it as they wish, are the Turkish Cypriots.

When Cypriots had revolted against the British in the 50s, the British took full advantage of the justified fears of the TCs. They employed their well tested "divide and rule" policies, and out of the Turkish minority they created a "community" of which the approval would be required for anything to happen in Cyprus. By ensuring that the gave to this TC minority a whole lot more than what they should have, they ensured that that their "divide and rule" would last forever, since those that gained (TCs) would naturally not give up what was gained, and those that lost (GCs) would naturally want to gain back what they lost.

Then when Turkey came along, they convinced TCs that not only they are not a minority, but that they also deserve 1/3rd of Cyprus for themselves. Greediness is part of human nature, so TCs believed them.

So now trying to solve the problem in terms of TCs and GCs is like wasting our time with the excuses instead of looking at the real reasons. The reason is that those that wanted to rule Cyprus had the power to do so - period.

Any "solution" offered today with the current balance of power will be again something that will serve those that have the power and not us. In fact today, that there is no USSR or anybody to oppose USA and their partners in crime, it is certain that if the status changes it will change for the worst for us. And thats exactly what the Annan plan was. It was not a solution to the problem, just a change in the status that would be even worst for Cypriots.

So as bad as the current status is, our only option is to maintain what we have and not to lose even more. At least this way we will not sign away 1/3rd of our country officially to Turkey, and we will let the door open so in the future, under a different balance of power, our land could be returned to us. While the USA will probably be the power for many more decades, I personally don't think the same about Turkey. I think it is very possible that at some point in the near future the USA will decide that Turkey got too strong for their liking, and decide to act in a way that can change the status in the area to one that will be somewhat better for us than it is now.

[Tim Drayton]

Piratis,
Yes, I also agree with just about everything you say.
I was simply addressing the issue of partition in this thread, and you have widened the issue to such an extent that I would have to write a whole dissertation to outline my thoughts on your post.
Perhaps I could just jot down a few points out of courtesy.
The British have clearly proved to be masters of the tactic of divide and rule. It seems to me that three of the most intractable ethnic disputes in the world over the past century have been those in Northern Ireland, Cyprus and Sri Lanka. Is it just coincidence that the British were in all of these places?
Also, you are absolutely right that ulitmately what happens in Cyprus depends on what the major world powers wish for. Now that the USA has become embroiled in a drawn-out conflict in the Middle East, and Britian is its most faithful ally in this venture, the British bases and monitoring facilities in Cyprus, given the island's proximity to the conflict zone, have once again assumed vital importance for the Western powers. This makes me a little pessimistic about the prospects for Cypriots, even if there existed a strong will on the part of all the people of the island to unify, to obtain the full self-determination. Such a will obviously does not exist at the moment, but it is not inconceivable that it could develop over time. The only question that I ask is: do the Western powers need a system of divide and rule in Cyprus in order to guarantee the existence of the bases and military facilities? If not, then unification remains a feasible long-term project.

[Piratis]

The only question that I ask is: do the Western powers need a system of divide and rule in Cyprus in order to guarantee the existence of the bases and military facilities? If not, then unification remains a feasible long-term project.

Unfortunately with Cypriots being divided it is indeed much easier for them to control Cyprus. The Cyprus problem is used against both sides (Cyprus - Turkey) as both a stick and a carrot. If Cypriots were truly united and Turkey didn't have an interest in Cyprus anymore, then it would be more difficult for USA/UK to do whatever they feel like without even being questioned. And in the mid to long term future, if the unity of Cypriots would be solidified and EU became closer to a confederation and more aggressive in perusing her own interests, then I think it would be very possible for the UK/USA bases in Cyprus to be turned into EU bases with much better terms for Cypriots.

Basically the reason why the current balance of power will not allow a true united Cyprus is the same reason that a clean partition will not be allowed either. Not because they are making as a favor or because they care about international law, but simply because such development would not suit them for mostly the same reasons.

P.S. I emphasized the true when I was referring to unification above, just to distinguish it from the pretend unification that was the Annan plan. That plan not only would not unite Cypriots, but it would turn the illegal partition of today into a legal one with two separate and conflicting states this time, instead of just ethnic groups. At the same time, as opposed to a "clean" partition and the current status, no side would have a real country to fight for the rights of the Cypriot people in the UN, EU etc. We would be reduced to a community, and the "central government" would be unable to take any important decisions, leaving the most important issues to be decided by the supreme court, which would be made up by foreign judges, and you can guess who will actually appoint those and whose interests they would serve.

[Tim Drayton]

Piratis,
Again I hear you and it all makes sense.
Don't get me wrong. I am not defending the Annan Plan, or any other plan that it is cooked up by outsiders for the benefit of Cypriots. Only when the people of this island come together and decide for themselves how they wish to cohabit on this peice of land will there be a viable plan.
It is probably true, as you say, that the future of the bases is more secure in a divided Cyprus. Just think, if a person wishes to go from Paralimni to Paphos in their own country, they twice have to pass through the sovereign territory of a foreign power. Yet, this same person is probably so consumed with rage at the Turkish occupation that they remain oblivious to this other foreign presence on their soil.
On the other hand, it is possible to fall victim to a kind of fatalism that says all our problems are due to foreign interference so we are powerless to act. Sure, you won't be able to achieve anything unless it suits the interests of the dominant powers in the world, but within those perameters there is still surely quite a bit of room for maneouvre.