Cyprus-Forum.com

[phoenix]

Phoenix

You and I have had differences, but this one caps the lot. Just to put you in the picture, I am Scottish. For me, England is as foreign as France (I'm bilingual French-English, so language is not a barrier in that comparison). In fact, I prefer France! In all the years of Scottish history I was subjected to in school, I never heard any mention of a Breton "input" into Scotland. Perhaps you would care to enlighten me?

If you think that pure Presbyterianism is the same as Anglicism, you might as well say that the Orthodox Church here is the same as the Catholics. There is a world of difference (including the fact that the Anglicans forbid me of partaking of Holy Communion). Have a look at the 1646 Westminster Confession of Faith, which is the basic Presbyterian polity and you will see that it is very different, following the tenets of Jean Calvin and his disciple John Knox, whereas Anglicism was founded by Henry VIII and embodies Catholicism except where it suited Henry to be different, mainly in terms of marriage and divorce.

FYI, the Normans WERE of Viking origin, not French. And they invaded the Lowlands but were unable to invade the Highlands, so yes, there is some Norman blood in Scotland, but not enough to drown out the predominant Celtic culture, which was later reinforced from Ireland.

I can assure you that if you go to Scotland and say they are the same as the English, you are likely to get your throat slit and your body thrown into the Clyde. The Scottish identity is strong.

No this is pretty much like all our battles . . . you are wrong!

My husband is Scottish too, and boy do I wind him up with these reminders. He does in fact still have a French derived Scottish surname.
On the basis that all his school History had to do with Culloden and Bannockburn, I can see why you too know nothing about the French co-relationship you share with the English . . . and now you mention them, yes the Irish too!

Anglo-French?

Historians are divided as to what to call the people who came to Ireland in 1169. Although many came from England, many other barons came to Ireland from France. The Normans (from northern France) had taken over English government only 100 years before. Therefore, historians variously use the terms "Cambro- Norman", "Anglo- Norman", "Anglo- French" or simply "Norman". Here we use "Anglo- French", but any of the above terms is acceptable. As time went on, and England evolved, the term gets replaced with the more modern word "English".

Source:
http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ire ... asion.html

The Normans were from Normandy in France. The Bretons (Brittany, France) also contributed to Scottish heritage.

Source Wik:

Celtic nations and their culture

Nations Brittany (Breizh) · Cornwall (Kernow) · Wales (Cymru) · Ireland (Éire) · Isle of Man (Mannin) · Scotland (Alba)

Languages Brythonic: Breton · Cornish · Welsh
Goidelic: Irish · Manx · Scottish Gaelic

Culture Brittany · Cornwall · Ireland · Man · Scotland · Wales

Music Brittany · Cornwall · Ireland · Man · Scotland · Wales


Peoples Breton · Cornish · Irish · Irish Traveller · Manx · Scottish · Ulster-Scots · Welsh

As far as religion is concerned both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches acknowledge each other as having a single mission . . . as ALL Christian Churches do. So no comparison as far as Islam and Christianity goes.

[zan]

Have you done a study on how many countries that were forced or even signed together stayed together.........I can think of one...The Cyprus Republic....Only lasted 3 years..

The problem with the 1960 constitution was that it was totally botched by the vested interests of the three guarantor powers and did not consider the interests of the Cypriot people. It was not even thought through (when I read it in 1960, I said to myself that it was unworkable). This was exacerbated by the attitude of the Brits in their last 6 years of colonialism, leaving a legacy of strife. We live today under this same legacy and that is why we need a totally new and not a revised constitution.

There are not many other examples of countries where polyethnicism has been imposed on them by external forces in the same way as Cyprus, if any. This is one good reason why we need a totally new constitution: it was an experiment that failed. India/Pakistan was another such experiment in partitionism that failed. OTOH, there are many countries where polyethnicism has been voluntarily and more-or-less peacefully accepted, often after years of strife. Some examples: Europe; Switzerland, Belgium, Italy, France: Asia; Singapore, Philippines, Malaysia, China, Indonesia: Africa; Egypt, South Africa: Americas; Canada, Mexico, USA etc. Note that I don't exclude competitiveness or comparisons between the ethnicities, often characterised by jokes (how many Poles does it take to screw in a light bulb?) or regionalisation. It may take a century or more for total elimination of racial strife, but once the citizens see the advantage, then they do work towards it for the common wealth of all the communities, but it does take time, even a couple of generations, for some of the hard heads to be convinced.

So, I advocate a clean slate for a new constitution that gives truly equal rights to all Cypriot citizens, be they Greek- or Turkish-speaking, Maronite, Armenian, Latin or whatever and the right of each community to determine its own future within the framework of the common good. It can be done, provided that the exercise is approached in a spirit of goodwill. Others have done it.

A pension taken out by a man of 30 who dies at 60 is a waste of time in hind sight Devil.......The constitution was fine for its' day and only the intent of those seeking ENOSIS destroyed it. It was the first exercise to be carried out by the Akritas Plan.....Destroy the constitution and make it look unworkable......Look it up and see. After the event the Greek propaganda machine was there to say that they didn't mean it....Pull the other one

[EPSILON]

Phoenix

You and I have had differences, but this one caps the lot. Just to put you in the picture, I am Scottish. For me, England is as foreign as France (I'm bilingual French-English, so language is not a barrier in that comparison). In fact, I prefer France! In all the years of Scottish history I was subjected to in school, I never heard any mention of a Breton "input" into Scotland. Perhaps you would care to enlighten me?

If you think that pure Presbyterianism is the same as Anglicism, you might as well say that the Orthodox Church here is the same as the Catholics. There is a world of difference (including the fact that the Anglicans forbid me of partaking of Holy Communion). Have a look at the 1646 Westminster Confession of Faith, which is the basic Presbyterian polity and you will see that it is very different, following the tenets of Jean Calvin and his disciple John Knox, whereas Anglicism was founded by Henry VIII and embodies Catholicism except where it suited Henry to be different, mainly in terms of marriage and divorce.

FYI, the Normans WERE of Viking origin, not French. And they invaded the Lowlands but were unable to invade the Highlands, so yes, there is some Norman blood in Scotland, but not enough to drown out the predominant Celtic culture, which was later reinforced from Ireland.

I can assure you that if you go to Scotland and say they are the same as the English, you are likely to get your throat slit and your body thrown into the Clyde. The Scottish identity is strong.

No this is pretty much like all our battles . . . you are wrong!

My husband is Scottish too, and boy do I wind him up with these reminders. He does in fact still have a French derived Scottish surname.
On the basis that all his school History had to do with Culloden and Bannockburn, I can see why you too know nothing about the French co-relationship you share with the English . . . and now you mention them, yes the Irish too!

Anglo-French?

Historians are divided as to what to call the people who came to Ireland in 1169. Although many came from England, many other barons came to Ireland from France. The Normans (from northern France) had taken over English government only 100 years before. Therefore, historians variously use the terms "Cambro- Norman", "Anglo- Norman", "Anglo- French" or simply "Norman". Here we use "Anglo- French", but any of the above terms is acceptable. As time went on, and England evolved, the term gets replaced with the more modern word "English".

Source:
http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ire ... asion.html

The Normans were from Normandy in France. The Bretons (Brittany, France) also contributed to Scottish heritage.

Source Wik:

Celtic nations and their culture

Nations Brittany (Breizh) · Cornwall (Kernow) · Wales (Cymru) · Ireland (Éire) · Isle of Man (Mannin) · Scotland (Alba)

Languages Brythonic: Breton · Cornish · Welsh
Goidelic: Irish · Manx · Scottish Gaelic

Culture Brittany · Cornwall · Ireland · Man · Scotland · Wales

Music Brittany · Cornwall · Ireland · Man · Scotland · Wales


Peoples Breton · Cornish · Irish · Irish Traveller · Manx · Scottish · Ulster-Scots · Welsh

As far as religion is concerned both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches acknowledge each other as having a single mission . . . as ALL Christian Churches do. So no comparison as far as Islam and Christianity goes.

If Scotland's relation with England ,under Great Britain unbrella, creates such correspondence lets forget this famous united Cyprus. Facts are facts, individuals can not change this!!!!

[devil]

Yes, but the UK is a UNITED Kingdom. The Scots and the English have their differences, some of them important, but it stays at the level of words. Historically, it was very violent, but not today and not since the 18th century. The worst that has happened in the last 100 years has been an odd electricity pylon blown up (when Scottish hydroelectric power was exported to the south) and the theft of the Stone of Scone (I was a student when this happened and we all had a good laugh!). Notwithstanding, the Scots have a totally different mindset to the English, as is shown in their higher level of education, engineering, science, arts and general culture. I lived the 1st 19 years of my life in what has often been described as the UK's capital of culture, Edinburgh.

As usual, Phoenix, you distort facts to suit your arguments. You quote all sorts of references to bolster your arguments, but twist them round out of all recognition:

1. The Normans came from Normandy in 1066, yes. The very name is not French, let alone their origin. NOR(se)MAN, get it? They were Nordic invaders of the North of France and they were not there long enough (~2 generations) to assimilate the French culture. The language they spoke was not French but a bastardised mixture of Nordic and French. The main reason that William the Bastard invaded England was because the French were giving these invaders grief.

2. I never said that the Breton culture was not Celtic, as was that of half of Europe 2500 years ago. There were hundreds of Celtic tribes then, but they were not united nor strong enough to resist the onslaught of the Romans between 100 BC and 200 AD. Even before they were pushed into the most inhospitable parts of the world, they were speaking different languages and developed different cultures. So the Romans pushed them into the Alps (the Allemans), Britanny (Bretons) etc. But there has been no link between the Bretons and the Scottish since the Roman invasion and, even before that, it was very tenuous. The Breton and Gaelic languages are very distinct and would be no more inter-comprehensible than, say, Spanish and English. You are wrong when you state that Scottish culture etc. was influenced by the Bretons, so why not admit your mistake, instead of obfuscating and trying to cover it up by quoting the fact that the Scots and the Bretons were both of Celtic origin, thousands of years ago, which we all know, anyway.

[phoenix]

Notwithstanding, the Scots have a totally different mindset to the English, as is shown in their higher level of education, engineering, science, arts and general culture. I lived the 1st 19 years of my life in what has often been described as the UK's capital of culture, Edinburgh.

We agree on this . . . I didn't state my greater respect for the Scots earlier! But my son is half Scot . . . so no argument there devil

. . . and Edinburgh is the Athens of the North . . .

1. The Normans came from Normandy in 1066, yes. The very name is not French, let alone their origin. NOR(se)MAN, get it? They were Nordic invaders of the North of France and they were not there long enough (~2 generations) to assimilate the French culture. The language they spoke was not French but a bastardised mixture of Nordic and French. The main reason that William the Bastard invaded England was because the French were giving these invaders grief.

This elaborates but basically agrees with what I stated before.

2. I never said that the Breton culture was not Celtic, You are wrong when you state that Scottish culture etc. was influenced by the Bretons, so why not admit your mistake, instead of obfuscating and trying to cover it up by quoting the fact that the Scots and the Bretons were both of Celtic origin, thousands of years ago, which we all know, anyway.

Again we then agree . . . and here are just two quickly chosen Scot ~ Breton cultural / historical associations:
http://living.scotsman.com/music.cfm?id=1692004

http://members.aol.com/Skyewrites/breton3.html