Cyprus-Forum.com

[phoenix]

Phoenix,
You've a perfect right to post whatever you want; your right to do so is not at issue.

My point was simple, Pantheman's paranoia nothwithstanding, that a new person to the forum made a reasonable first topic post and you replied with various accusations. That didn't seem to me to be conducive to a fruitful discussion and I said that maybe we might get further if we looked at things from the other side. You disagree with my assessment and suggestion it seems, and instead you fall back into the deep and well-travelled rut of accusations. OK, that's your right and enjoy it. We'll see whether the same old wheel will make its' same old revolution on this thread or whether a new and more hopeful turn is taken.

COPPERLINE THE SABOTEUR !

[pantheman]

Phoenix,
You've a perfect right to post whatever you want; your right to do so is not at issue.

My point was simple, Pantheman's paranoia nothwithstanding, that a new person to the forum made a reasonable first topic post and you replied with various accusations. That didn't seem to me to be conducive to a fruitful discussion and I said that maybe we might get further if we looked at things from the other side. You disagree with my assessment and suggestion it seems, and instead you fall back into the deep and well-travelled rut of accusations. OK, that's your right and enjoy it. We'll see whether the same old wheel will make its' same old revolution on this thread or whether a new and more hopeful turn is taken.

COPPERLINE THE SABOTEUR !

Paranoid i am not, but i rest my case.

Pheonix, fyi, i chanllanged copperline in the past to tell us his/her nationality, but this was met with great resistance and some very choice words.

The nationality was never revealed

Still wondering.......

[CopperLine]

Phoenix,
Let me try to understand what you've just said : a person who questions whether accusing another newcomer of being a traitor, of wishing to take an island away and of being a 'Turk in disguise' is conducive to fruitful discussion is, in your universe, called a "saboteur". Whereas the person who actually makes the accusations in the first place is not the saboteur but is actually the one seeing the other side of the argument. That being the case in your universe, I'm regretfully still more persuaded that there is no common ground (let alone language) with which to pursue this thread.

Hhhmmm. All is not as it seems in this topsy-turvy world. Afraid that I'm going to have to leave you to your alice-in-wonderland redefinition of words. Anyway, we'll see, as I said, how this thread goes. Good luck.

[umit07]

Hi again.

I don't want enter an argument which will never end and have no positive outcome whatsoever , so I choose not to reply to anyone calling me a "traitor" or "Turk in disguise" and so on....
What I'm just trying to pt out what the general expectations of the "Turkish Cypriot" side are that's all. I think that the topic of "Cypriot Nationality" (is there such a thing?) is important but should be a topic to be discussed in it's own thread. ( I will later open up this topic again in another thread). What I would like is a civilized discussion!!!!!!!!!!!! You should pt. out your view without being intimidating. I am not trying to force anything onto anybody, and am happy to hear from anyone as long as they try to be a bit constructive.

lastly I would like to thank "CopperLine" for his/her reply.

[shahmaran]

Dear umit and CopperLine, there is no negotiation with such people who's motto is something along the lines of "either you are with me or against me" or "everything or nothing", the fact that Phoenix starts of her reply with "MY ISLAND" really settles her position without needing to be read any further.

i mean this is the same person that was trying to suggest the idea that the TC community has less rights to the island due to their genetic background and indigenousness

She is a lost cause under the disguise of a rational and reasoning person.

[Nikitas]

Umit, your goals, namely:

"1) To be "Turkish Cypriot's " nothing more or less
2) A federal Soln with 2 states and a joint Federal upper gov.
3) The guarantorship of Turkey.

Besides these 3 things anything is open to argument. "

Are put in such a way as to sound non negotiable. The first one is easy and I do not think anyone has challenged your right to be Turkish Cypriots. Osmosis was in reference to communication between the two communities and not to absorption.

2- The federal thing, which you qualify as "like in the US" is ok if it is like in the US. There is another view which tranalstes as exclusion of ALL others, not just Greeks from the federal state. In addition the size of the federal state claimed is totally disproportionate, if 18 percent of the people are entitled to 37 percent of the land what are the 82 percent of the people entitled to? The practices of the TRNC so far (constitutionally enshrined confiscation of Greek land, erasing of Greek patrimony, expulsion of the remaining Greek Cypriots of Karpasia) are indications of another kind of meaning for the word federal.

In a place as small as Cyprus do you honestly think that a federal solution with artificial boundaries can last long? Refer to the USA where people are moving, mostly west, populating states that have jobs and a higher standard of living. They prefer to be waiters in LA than unemployed farm hands in Boise Idaho. By analogy it is likely that many Turkish Cypriots will prefer to be white collar workers in Limassol than waiters in Kyrenia, and then what? There will be a claim that there is a minority of Turkish Cypriots in the Greek Cypriot Federal state?

Turkey's guarantee is just not going to fly if it is a right to interfere over the whole island. By rights then Greece would have the same right. How would you like to have your independence underwritten by Greece? The magnitude and ferocity of the Turkish invasion is ever present in Greek Cypriot minds. There is no way Turkey, or Greece and other so called "guarantors" can have a role in a free independent Cyprus. Independence is like pregnancy, you cannot be a little bit independent as you cannot be a little pregnant. You either are or you are not. Some of us want to be independent and not under the thumb of any foreigner.

[Nikitas]

Shahmaran

Phoenix said it is my island, as it is your island. That is how it works in all countrie of the world. A Swiss says Switzerland is his country, not that the Canton of Geneva is his country. So where did you find something disagreeable in that statement unless you intend to EXCLUDE people from the part of the island you consider by some strange process yours? If you do not see the whole of Cyprus as your country you have nothing to contribute to a CYPRUS FORUM.

[halil]

Hi I am a newbie to this forum. I would like to point out to me what I think are the main obstacles of the entire problem from a Turkish Cypriot point of view.

1) The problem of nationality

I consider myself to be a TURKISH CYPRIOT , nothing more or nothing less and I don't think it is a subject which we should cause a fuss about . I see that a national identity as just being a "CYPRIOT" does not exist ( if their was such a national identity between the two major communities in Cyprus we would never be in the situation we are in now). To me the "CYPRIOT" identity is used as a political angle in the Cyprus problem by the Greek Cypriot side.

( on my father's pre 1974 ROC passport in the Nationality field it says "Turkish Cypriot" )

2) The view of the ROC that the problem in Cyprus is the "Occupation of the north of the island by the Turkish Army" and lancing this as if it was the CORE argument of the problem.

3) The Turkish Cypriots want a Federal solution in which they have there own state ( like in America) and a joint higher Federal Government. But as far as I can see it the Greek Cypriot administration is just trying to as Tpap says "osmosis" in which the ROC will just assimilate the Turkish Cypriot community into it.

As I can see it the Greek Cypriot side does not want to give up the ROC that only really lived for 3 years and set up a new state.


In the end as a Turkish Cypriot what we want are the following:

1) To be "Turkish Cypriot's " nothing more or less
2) A federal Soln with 2 states and a joint Federal upper gov.
3) The guarantorship of Turkey. Besides these 3 things anything is open to argument.

What are your views?

Looking foward to your reading your views.

İ am with you UMİT.

[shahmaran]

Hmmm Nikitas, unfortunately i'm not old enough to consider the other half of the island to be a part of me or my identity, so when someone who i have no association with other then sharing a piece of land claims it as a whole while undermining my existence and rights on the island then of course i will disagree, as i am sure you would too.

Unfortunately the people who have lived "one Cyprus" are almost extinct. The only Cyprus i have known is the TRNC. So, just because my view of the island is different to yours, it does not make my contribution any less worthy.

Also, not that it is actually relevant, this forum is called Cyprus Forum because it is a GC forum for the GC's to get together for some Turk bashing, not because the name actually reflects the current situation accurately.

[Nikitas]

Your response Shah answers my question to Umit about the nature of the federation. It is not "just like in the USA" at all. Americans from all states consider the USA as a whole their country and have songs like God Bless America. YOu have your exclusion fetish. Somehow they managed to convince you that you have exclusive rights to one piece of the island and you are happy with that. What is wrond with you? Cant you see around you all the signs of a mixed culture? Does that not worry you?

As for the people brought up on one Cyprus being almost extinct, let me assure you that those who were 10 in 1974 are now at the peak of their political and economic power.