Cyprus-Forum.com

[EPSILON]

It took me a long time because you constantly calling me a Sunni Muslim Turk does not actually mean anything to me nor i found it worth replying to, i was busy tackling your other nonsense, first of all i am from the TRNC, secondly i do not consider myself to be a Muslim or part of any other similar backward ignorance, and finally Sunni Muslims are not 98% of the population in Turkey, there are many Jews, Armenians, Pontus and Christian Turks, in fact there are over 20 ethnic minorities there but only 1 of them is partially supporting a terrorist organization that is trying to divide the country, not only in Turkey but also in Iran.

I have looked at the site my friend, i know what i am talking about, its not the first time i see nor hear such events, unless by some random coincidence all those Kurdish journalists have been jailed for tax frauds or car theft i would put my money on them being charged for supporting the PKK cause directly or indirectly, which reminds me after your 10th post you still fail to answer my question about the 40,000 dead Turks yet you insist on blaming ME for being fascist and a Muslim for some odd reason (as if its a crime to be a Muslim), i think i know exactly where you stand and its no where respectable...

Also let me remind you that only half of Turkey voted for the Islamic AKP while the other half is, according to you, "ultra-nationalist Kemalists", once more proving that you have absolutely no clue and your argument is driven by nothing but racist hate rather then rationality and logic, i would dare to say ethics too but i think that would be far from your line of sight.

IF YOU TRY TO INVATE GREECE AND YOU HAVE 40000 SOLDIERS DEAD THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT GREKS ARE HE BAD GUYS-YOU WILL STILL REMAIN THE BAD GUYS LIKE HITLER-HE ALSO ALSO MILLIONS OF SOLDIERS

[Nikephoros]

http://www.tsk.mil.tr/eng/konusma/gnkur ... 062005.htm

By the way, I would like to share with you the basic points of ATATURK’s philosophy while he established the Republic. We call his philosophy ATATURK’s Thought System. The main essence of his thought system can best be summarized in his words “I don’t leave any dogma or cliché to you. What I leave for you is science and reason. If those who would like to follow me adopt the guidance of science and reason then they will be my spiritual inheritors.”

No dogma or cliche, just the ATATURK THOUGHT SYSTEM...

This is funny stuff. The fascist Turkish military needs to make translations of their writings. It is very entertaining to non-Turks.

[shahmaran]

Whats so bad about "science and reason" ?

Other then the fact that it is a Turks who is defending it rather then some boy loving chump from Athens

[Nikephoros]

Turkish Youth! your primary duty is ever to preserve and defend the National independence of the Turkish Republic.

That is the sole foundation of your existence and your future. This foundation is your most precious treasure. In the future too, too there will be ill-will, both in the country itself and abroad, which will try to tear this treasure from you. If one day you are compelled to defend your independence and the Republic, then, in order to fullfil your duty ... It is possible that the enemies who desire to destroy your independence and your Repubic represent the strongest force that the earth has ever seen; that they have, through craft and force, taken possession of all the fortresses and arsenals of the homeland; that all its armies are scattered and the country actually completely occupied.

Assuming, in order to look still darker possibilities in the face, that those who hold the power of Government within the country have fallen into error, that they are fools or traitors, yes, even that these leading persons can identify their personal interests with the enemy's political goals, it might happen that the nation came into complete privation, into the most extreme distress; that if found itself in a condition of ruin and complete exhaustion.

Even under those circumstances, Turkish child of future generations, it is your duty to save the independence of the Turkish Republic.

The strength that you will need for this is the noble blood which flows in your veins.

The End.

Ataturk, Mustafa Ghazi Kemal. The Great Speech. Ataturk Research Center, (Ankara; 2005) p. 715-716.

I missed the true importance statement for a long time, and it took me a while to understand, because it is hard for Westerners to understand the Turkish mentality. This speech by Ataturk, is the best proof: that Turks are meant to be subjects of the Turkish state and not citiziens. Because to be a citizien, the state takes obligations toward you and you have certain "unalienable rights", a subject is meant to have absolutely loyal even if he gets nothing in return.

[Nikitas]

This ideology will simply not fit in to the European scheme fo things.

[BC Numismatics]

Nikitas,the Kemalist ideology is as bigoted as the racist ideologies of both Sinn Fein/I.R.A. & Z.A.N.U.-P.F..That goes to prove that Turkey doesn't even qualify for membership of the European Union anyway.

Aidan.

[shahmaran]

Maybe, but it was this very mentality that destroyed the imperialist forces back in the day including Greece along with the internal rebellions, religious extremists and the Ottoman Empire symphatizers who were the imperial butt kissers ready to hand their country on a silver plate anyways, so you can see why people agree with it so much, it pulled them out of the depths of desperation and lead them to ultimate victory. It is normal for other people not to understand it. No body was going to give the Turks anything, hence Ataturk's another famous quote "sovereignty is not given, but it is taken". And so we did

[BC Numismatics]

Turkey would be better off uniting with Iran,as it has a bigoted national identity policy,not to mention,one of the worst human rights records in the Middle East.Yes,Turkey is a Middle Eastern country,not a European country!

Aidan.

[akiner]

Maybe, but it was this very mentality that destroyed the imperialist forces back in the day including Greece along with the internal rebellions, religious extremists and the Ottoman Empire symphatizers who were the imperial butt kissers ready to hand their country on a silver plate anyways, so you can see why people agree with it so much, it pulled them out of the depths of desperation and lead them to ultimate victory. It is normal for other people not to understand it. No body was going to give the Turks anything, hence Ataturk's another famous quote "sovereignty is not given, but it is taken". And so we did

Well said shahmaran,

/claps

[CopperLine]

Nikephoros,

This speech by Ataturk, is the best proof: that Turks are meant to be subjects of the Turkish state and not citiziens. Because to be a citizien, the state takes obligations toward you and you have certain "unalienable rights", a subject is meant to have absolutely loyal even if he gets nothing in return.

Except, of course, that in the UK the long history has been that people are subjects of the crown and NOT citizens. It took the formation of the EU to secure modern citizenship for British subjects. Thus your interpretation is not peculiar or exclusiove to Turkey

I'm strongly opposed to Kemalism and nationalism but it does nothing for your argument to either caricature Turkey or to to find Turkey 'exceptional' and unEuropean. In actual fact most of the qualities that people find objectionable about Turkish politics and society are (a) not exceptional and (b) thoroughly European, after all the principal successes (whether we like them/approve of them or not) of Kemalist reform and the new Turksih republic was precisely to modernise Turkey/Anatolia according to 'european' criteria. It is somewhat ironic that those who assert the exceptional character of Turkey are mimicking the argument of Turkish fascists, nationalists and militarists who give them so much grief.

Nikitas,
As I've said before I'm no apologist for Kemalism, but I do think a distinction has to be made between the politics of Ataturk himself and what can be called the 'neo-Kemalism' of the post-1980 period. The re-estabalishment of a distinctive Turkish polity was, at the time (1920s-1930s), revolutionary and progressive and arguably had some kind of formal democratic legitimacy. However, what goes under the name Kemalism today is fascism dressed up as nationalism and played out by militarism.

So, though I don't want to split hairs, classical Kemalism is very much an ideology which was product of and would have fitted very well with Europe; by contrast the neo-Kemalism of a fascist nationalism is, I agree, hostile to and antipathetic to Europe. For my way of thinking, the question is, again, how are those vast numbers of progressive, anti-nationalist anti fascist Turks, including in Cyprus, encouraged and given support. Certainly not by lambasting Turks and Turkey with the racist and fascist diatribes that regularly infest this forum (not you I hasten to add).