Cyprus-Forum.com

[denizaksulu]

The army is the head of the modernization:

http://www.yok.gov.tr/webeng/history.html

The Imperial Naval Engineering College (Muhendishane-i Bahri-i Humayun) was founded in 1773, soon after the Russian navy annihilated the Ottoman navy at Cetme on the Aegean coast. Until then, it had not been believed possible for the Russian navy to make the voyage from the Baltic to the Mediterranean. Thus, the Ottomans felt the need for an entirely different type of institution of higher education for the first time. Subsequently, in 1795, the Imperial Military Engineering College (Muhendishane-i Berri-i Humayun) was opened. These two institutions represent the first diversion from the traditional education of the madrasas, and were later merged to form the roots of today’s Istanbul Technical University. These institutions were followed by the Imperial Medical College (T?bbiye) in 1827 and the Imperial Military College (Harbiye) in 1833.

Only after constant military defeats did Muslim Ottoman society learn that their Koranic institutions and learning were not perfect as believed, that they were behind in everything compared to Western Europe. This is when Turks started their bastardized borrowings of orginally European concepts.

This is why the military has such importance in Turkish society along with the Islamic pre-eminence for jihad warfare.

In spite of all of what you say above, the Ottomans still did manage to subjugate whole chunks of Europe, right up to the gates of Vienna and turn the Mediterranean Sea into a Turkish lake
You 'dumpkoff' show me a European nation who hasnt 'modernised'.

[CopperLine]

Nikitas,
My understanding is that the status and significance of the Turkish army is neither a carry over from Ottoman days nor even a continuation of Ataturk's period of rule. Rather the army's power arose during the Cold War and is intimately linked with anti-communism. Socialist political movements in Turkey, including 'radical' army officers, had a distinguished history in Turkey and one which Kemal Ataturk addressed albeit in an ambivalent fashion. the post second world war pitched the turkish army in a new role - effectively refashioned as the regulator of Turkish politics. The single most significant and open intervention by the Turkish army was, of course, the 1980 coup at the height of the second cold war, in the aftermath of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan but more importantly in the wake of the Iranian revolution. Domino theory still informed western (i.e, US & NATO) foreign policy, and the instability of Turkey was not going to be allowed fall to communism on the one hand nor 'Islam' on the other hand. The repression of worker and democratic movements in Turkey merely echoed what had been done in Iran, Iraq, Egypt, and so on, and like those places and other besides it was the army which fulfilled the purging role. Democratic and socialist movements right across the region were decimated and the reign of terror had its effect - it inhibited secular opposition movements (but not islamist forces) for at least a generation or two. Democracy is weak in Turkey not because Turks are not democratic b but because a generation of democratic Turks were killed or imprisoned or otherwise terrorised. The murder of Hrant Dink last year is, if nothing else, a reminder to democrats of what secular facsists have waiting for them and what AKP governors are unable to prevent. I don't agree with T_C therefore whens/he says that the army is important because Mustafa Kemal was an army general. It is significant for example that upon concluding the War of Independence Mustafa Kemal hung up his uniform - he chose not to rule as member of the military. His was a civilian government open to more or less democratic challenge - that is to say compared with any democracy of western Europe of the 1920s and 1930s Turkey was relatively democratic. Remember T_C it was Mustafa Kemal who gathered a national force together against Greek intervention precisely because the official army had either capitulated or proven ineffective.

The cult of Kemalism itself an invention of the post-war, post-Inononu politics is riding high today in Turkey (and TRNC), at least if public symobolism is used as the measure. (Where else outside of North Korea does one see this state idolatry ?) And of course Kemalism of today bears almost no relationship to the actual politics or life of Ataturk. I'm no fan of Ataturk but current Kemalism thrives on sheer ignorance of his time and place. And it is the Turkish education system, as I said in my last post, that cultivates idolatry and ignorance in equal measure. Yet, miraculously, out of this disaster Turkey tens of thousands of fine scientists, scholars, writers, journalists, artists ... and democrats ... nevertheless survive and struggle.

[Nikitas]

Thanks Copperline for an interesting perspective.

[Nikitas]

Deniz you say:

".......and turn the Mediterranean Sea into a Turkish lake" which they did not. Barbary pirates ravaged all shipping in the Mediterranean until the Americans (of all people!!!!) got pissed off and bombarded them into oblivion. France, Italy, Spain, Holland and Britain were the real naval powers of the time, and they are the ones that dared sail the oceans and discover new seas and territories.

One final point, is there a note of admiration for the alleged turning of the Med into a Turkish lake? By analogy is Greece to be admired if it pulls off the extension of its seas to 12 miles and turns the Aegean into a Greek lake?

[shahmaran]

Well they did back in the day didnt they?

[Nikephoros]

23 Journalists spent the recent Bayram in jail in wonderful nonfascist(as Turkish forumers allege) Turkey:

http://sahmaran.blogspot.com/2007/10/ha ... urkey.html
1- İbrahim Çiçek (Atılım Gazetesi), Tekirdağ No 2 F Type Prison
2- Sedat Şenoğlu (Atılım Gazetesi), Edirne No 1 F Type Prison
3- Füsun Erdoğan (Özgür Radyo), Gebze Special Type Prison, Gebze/Kocaeli
4- Hasan Coşar (Atılım Gazetesi), Sincan F Type Prison, Ankara
5- Ziya Ulusoy (Atılım Gazetesi), Tekirdağ No 1 F Type Prison
6- Bayram Namaz (Atılım Gazetesi), Edirne No 1 F Type Prison
7- Hatice Duman (Atılım Gazetesi), Gebze Special Type Prison, Gebze/Kocaeli
8- Suat Kolca (Özgür Halk ve Genç Bakış), Edirne F Type Special Prison
9- Yaşar Duman (Özgür Halk ve Genç Bakış), Edirne F Type Closed Prison
10- Selahattin Sumeli (Özgür Halk ve Genç Bakış), Edirne F Type Closed Prison
11- Mahmut Bozdağ (Özgür Halk ve Genç Bakış), Edirne F Type Closed Prison
12- Cem Şahin (Özgür Halk ve Genç Bakış), Tekirdağ No 2 F Type Prison
13- Kemal Aydeniz (Odak Dergisi), Bayrampaşa Prison
14- Erol Zavar (Odak Dergisi), Sincan F Type Prison, Ankara
15- Mustafa Gök (Ekmek ve Adalet Dergisi), Sincan F Type Prison, Ankara
16- Barış Açıkel (İşçi Köylü Gazetesi), Kandıra No 1 F Type Prison, Kocaeli
17- Behdin Tunç (DİHA), Diyarbakır D Type Prison
18- Faysal Tunç (DİHA), Diyarbakır D Type Prison
19- Sabri Adanır (Gündem Gazetesi), Diyarbakır E Type Prison
20- Mehmet Karaaslan (Gündem Gazetesi), Mersin E Type Prison
21- Ali Buluş (DİHA), Mersin E Type Prison
22- Sami Gök (Alınteri Gazetesi), Sincan F Type Prison, Ankara
23- Hüseyin Habip Taşkın (Güney Dergisi, Sosyalist Mezopotamya dergisi and Çoban Ateşi gazetesi), Manisa Prison

Hopefully when Cyprus is reunified one day, nasty Sunni Muslim Turkish Cypriots can teach NeoCypriols how to treat journalists properly.

[shahmaran]

23 Journalists spent the recent Bayram in jail in wonderful nonfascist(as Turkish forumers allege) Turkey:

http://sahmaran.blogspot.com/2007/10/ha ... urkey.html
1- İbrahim Çiçek (Atılım Gazetesi), Tekirdağ No 2 F Type Prison
2- Sedat Şenoğlu (Atılım Gazetesi), Edirne No 1 F Type Prison
3- Füsun Erdoğan (Özgür Radyo), Gebze Special Type Prison, Gebze/Kocaeli
4- Hasan Coşar (Atılım Gazetesi), Sincan F Type Prison, Ankara
5- Ziya Ulusoy (Atılım Gazetesi), Tekirdağ No 1 F Type Prison
6- Bayram Namaz (Atılım Gazetesi), Edirne No 1 F Type Prison
7- Hatice Duman (Atılım Gazetesi), Gebze Special Type Prison, Gebze/Kocaeli
8- Suat Kolca (Özgür Halk ve Genç Bakış), Edirne F Type Special Prison
9- Yaşar Duman (Özgür Halk ve Genç Bakış), Edirne F Type Closed Prison
10- Selahattin Sumeli (Özgür Halk ve Genç Bakış), Edirne F Type Closed Prison
11- Mahmut Bozdağ (Özgür Halk ve Genç Bakış), Edirne F Type Closed Prison
12- Cem Şahin (Özgür Halk ve Genç Bakış), Tekirdağ No 2 F Type Prison
13- Kemal Aydeniz (Odak Dergisi), Bayrampaşa Prison
14- Erol Zavar (Odak Dergisi), Sincan F Type Prison, Ankara
15- Mustafa Gök (Ekmek ve Adalet Dergisi), Sincan F Type Prison, Ankara
16- Barış Açıkel (İşçi Köylü Gazetesi), Kandıra No 1 F Type Prison, Kocaeli
17- Behdin Tunç (DİHA), Diyarbakır D Type Prison
18- Faysal Tunç (DİHA), Diyarbakır D Type Prison
19- Sabri Adanır (Gündem Gazetesi), Diyarbakır E Type Prison
20- Mehmet Karaaslan (Gündem Gazetesi), Mersin E Type Prison
21- Ali Buluş (DİHA), Mersin E Type Prison
22- Sami Gök (Alınteri Gazetesi), Sincan F Type Prison, Ankara
23- Hüseyin Habip Taşkın (Güney Dergisi, Sosyalist Mezopotamya dergisi and Çoban Ateşi gazetesi), Manisa Prison

Hopefully when Cyprus is reunified one day, nasty Sunni Muslim Turkish Cypriots can teach NeoCypriols how to treat journalists properly.

SAHMARAN: The Kurdish question

Sahmaran is Kurdish mytology, the Kurdish counterpart for mermaid. She has body of a woman and a snake. Mermaids are nasty characters, but Sahmaran is the opposite. She wants peace.

I always thought it was actually Persian and mermaids were sexy little girls who are extremely nice.


Interesting site, i presume all these were Kurdish reporters who probably got persecuted for glorifying terrorists or supporting the partition of Turkey, it is not surprising, i have not heard the name of not even 1 of these newspapers.

You can already go to jail for talking about the non-existence of a non-existing genocide in France which the world has still not up their minds about the truth behind it! Or even better, you can spend years in US torture camps (biggest one in South Cyprus by the way) until they decide if you actually have done anything or not, for simply being Muslim!

Maybe they can teach you how to treat journalists, or even better, your neighbors

[Nikitas]

Shahmaran wrote:

"Interesting site, i presume all these were Kurdish reporters who probably got persecuted for glorifying terrorists or supporting the partition of Turkey, it is not surprising, i have not heard the name of not even 1 of these newspapers"

Is partition a bad thing then? Or is it bad only when it is planned against Turkey?

[shahmaran]

I wasn't commenting on the ethics behind partition, but the most appropriate answer is it would be relevant according to the partitioner and the partitioned

[Nikitas]

Well Shah, considering the damage done (30 000 dead as reported in the media) there would seem to be a greater case for separating the Kurds from the Turks, for the sake of peace and tranquility etc. than separating other places and people.