Cyprus-Forum.com

[ARMENIAN CYPRIOT]

Menderes was scum and correct me if I am wrong. Didnt The Turkish Military hang him for what occured in 1955?? I do know the riots also ended spreading to the Armenian and Jewish section. I must say, I am surprised Greece didnt responed by expelling there Turkish population. What are they over 100,000 today??

[Nikephoros]

Menderes was hung but more likely because of the new coup, not out of sympathy for Greeks. A good way to cement the position of the Turkish military would be to discredit the previous elected government.

Turkey reduced damage assessments from 1.05 billion Turkish liras to less than 60 million Turkish liras an amount which was still further reduced from the procedures of the Istanbul Aid Comittee and tax commissions from which no appeal was allowed. (Vryonis, Speros. The Mechanism of Catastrophe: The Turkish Pogrom Of September 6-7, 1955, And The Destruction Of The Greek Community Of Istanbul. Greekworks.com (New York; 2005) p. 551-555.) If Turkey really had any remorse or Christian sense of morality, they would have attempted to compensate the Greek community at a value close to their assessment of damages.

Greece unlike muslim Turkey is not always looking to destroy its minority groups at every opportunity.

[CopperLine]

Nikephoros brings up important questions that I've tried to raise in the past and though I disagree with much of what/how s/he says here, the question of the dominance of fascism and of a really ugly nationalism in Turkey (with a distorted reflection in northern Cyprus) is surely accurate.

In relation to the Cyprus problem, insofar as Turkish politics is dominated by anti-democratic and nationalist movements then Cyprus and all Cypriots have much to fear. They have as much to fear as do Turkish democrats. Those Turks who see the army as the saviour of Turkish society (against religion/Islam/AKP/Kurds/PKK/Armenians/Cyprus ...etc etc) are supporting a repressive and fundamentally anti-democratic institution, but the dilemma facing many Turks is that they have been led to believe that the army is precisely ... a saviour, and how can one reject a saviour without being accused of being anti-secular/Muslim/Kurdish/PKK sympathiser/Armenian traitor/ungrateful Cypriot etc etc etc)

Instead of Turkey-bashing we might be advised to see how we can provide solidarity and support to non- or anti-nationalist and democratic Turkish and Turkish Cypriot movements and organisations. By god, this support is needed for Turkish democrats and dissenters are certainly a repressed 'minority'

I actually agree with Nikephoros that the Turkish education system is .. how did s/he put it ... a medrassah for nationalism .... It is a terrible education system (on the whole) and we need to ask who put the current education system in place - Answer : the army, following the 1980 coup. And if we want to know what kind of education system is developing in north Cyprus then you can just turn to Turkey's education to find the template. Why is it that on Turkish Independence Day, last week, it was being celebrated not just in north Cyprus but that children as young as four and five years old were being made to make and wave Turkish flags, sing and march to the Turkish national anthem .. in Cyprus ...in Cyprus schools ?

Shahraman is also right, I think, to say that Nikephoros overstates the depiction of Turkey and Turks by thinking "the extreme right of one country represents the whole". I agree with Shahraman's general point except that in the Turkish and Turkish Cypriot cases the nationalist right (and so-called nationalist 'left' eg CHP) continue to dominate the political agenda nothwithstanding the AKP government (the AKP may not be a traditional right nationalist party but it is a party of government which defers to the army and one which is a thoroughly effective party of neo-liberalism, and neo-liberalism is no friend of democracy). And the major problem with nationalist movements and parties (apart from their promotion of hatred and enmity) is that they have absolutely nothing to say about the real day to day conditions and circumstances of people's lives - employment policy, environmental policy, energy policy, health and social policy - they're too busy wrapping themselves up in acres of blood red flags.

Before anyone jumps in and says 'we told you so; we told you that TRNC is Turkey's poodle", that is not the issue. The issue is, given the longstanding divide, how can people provide the most effective democratic support to democratic movements (and in my strong view anti-nationalist movements) in TRNC and in Turkey.

[Nikitas]

Well said Copperline,

But in Turkey the army has transformed into an organism that pervades many facets of national life up to and including industry and the economy. It is unimaginable for a Turkish defence minister would call the chief of the armed forces to his office and demand his resignation, as often happens in democratic countries.

I often read in the news that the Turkish National Council meets and it is composed of government official and army generals. The non elected generals are equal with the elected officials when it comes to directing the fate of the country, and that is definitely not western style democracy.

For the army to achieve this all prevasive satus it needed a useful lever and that was the image and memory of Kemal. Naturally Turks feel thankful to Kemal, but the army uses this gratitude and has moved it up a notch to what Tim has called reverence. Any time someone criticizes the army the assumption is that the criticism is against the revered figure of Kemal and there are consequences.

I wonder whether this status of the army is something that arose as a result of Kemalism or if it is a continuation of the army's role from before. It is hard to imagine that so much power was handed on a plate. And the question is how does the army relinquish this privileged role as demanded by the European Union. It looks like there is a conflict in the making there.

[Nikephoros]

The army is the head of the modernization:

http://www.yok.gov.tr/webeng/history.html

The Imperial Naval Engineering College (Muhendishane-i Bahri-i Humayun) was founded in 1773, soon after the Russian navy annihilated the Ottoman navy at Cetme on the Aegean coast. Until then, it had not been believed possible for the Russian navy to make the voyage from the Baltic to the Mediterranean. Thus, the Ottomans felt the need for an entirely different type of institution of higher education for the first time. Subsequently, in 1795, the Imperial Military Engineering College (Muhendishane-i Berri-i Humayun) was opened. These two institutions represent the first diversion from the traditional education of the madrasas, and were later merged to form the roots of today’s Istanbul Technical University. These institutions were followed by the Imperial Medical College (T?bbiye) in 1827 and the Imperial Military College (Harbiye) in 1833.

Only after constant military defeats did Muslim Ottoman society learn that their Koranic institutions and learning were not perfect as believed, that they were behind in everything compared to Western Europe. This is when Turks started their bastardized borrowings of orginally European concepts.

This is why the military has such importance in Turkish society along with the Islamic pre-eminence for jihad warfare.

[T_C]

ZZZZzzzzzzzzz....

The military has importance in Turkish society because the founder of Turkey was a SOLDIER! The military is the most supported institution in Turkey...it is part of our culture, it always has been! Turks have been soldiers from the very beggining!

Had you had a better army then history may of been a bit different for you! You would probably have better things to do with your life than Turk bashing...still...don't spend your life dwelling on the past....get a therapist or something....

Plus you're one to talk about nationalism and education! It was only a few months ago that we read in the news about how your bishops and government recalled text books because they weren't doing enough to fuel anti-Turkish feelings.

[Nikephoros]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=dpIiOeqJu90
In the above Youtube video Neoklis Sarris who is a serious source for info on Greek-Turkish relations not idiot Turkish Cypriots says the following(paraphrased):

That Greek government agencies have been given directions to endorse Erdogan and his AKP party.
One of the results is the proposed changes in textbooks to make the Greek history textbooks more palatable for Turkey. Some of the proposed changes are direct translations from Turkish textbooks.

Utlimately the Turkish efforts and efforts of the inept Greek politicans supporting Erdogan and the false Greek-Turk friendship have failed. Greece is alot better off thanks to this failure.

[T_C]

LAME EXCUSES Nikephoros! Tut Tut Tut!!!! Idiot!

A history textbook for 11-year-olds that ignited the wrath of clergymen, nationalists and officials on Cyprus was at the centre of further controversy yesterday when Greece's newly re-elected government announced it would be withdrawn.
Less than 10 days after their return to power, the conservatives faced withering criticism for dropping a book that had dared to question a version of history that generations of Greeks have grown up with.

In the run-up to the election, critics had denounced the book for playing down the suffering of Greeks at the hands of the Turks.


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The textbook's revisionist view of the Greeks' 1821 war of independence against the Ottoman empire, and flight in 1922 from Smyrna, modern-day Izmir in Turkey, was condemned by some as especially unpatriotic, not least by the far-right Popular Orthodox Rally, or LAOS party, which makes its inaugural appearance in parliament this week.
Joining forces with the country's powerful Orthodox church, the party, which won an unprecedented 10 seats in the 300-member house, demanded that the book be withdrawn.

But highlighting the passions that the issue of Greek identity is still prone to arouse, liberal commentators, academics and much of the political opposition rounded on the conservatives for caving in to nationalist pressure.

"Every country has its hang-ups and for us it's the heroes of 1821," said Thanos Veremis, who presides over the National Council for Education, which advises the government on such matters.

"But frankly the decision to withdraw the book is stupid," Profesor Veremis told the Guardian. "It does nothing for the image of Greece and nor is it good for the Greeks.

"It is clear that the government has taken this move to guard its right flank when it has LAOS as an opponent."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cyprus/story/ ... 40,00.html

[Nikephoros]

What does Veremis and the Guardian know about this issue more than Neoklis Sarris who can read modern Turkish textbooks to compare if what was adopted regarding Greek-Turkish relations was translated from Turkish textbooks into Greek, to be adopted into Greek textbooks.

Neoklis Sarris used to live in Turkey and was involved in Turkish politics, Sarris is one of the best Greek Turcologists, Veremis is out of his depth on such issues, unless leftist ideology is history.

[ARMENIAN CYPRIOT]

The French also found the Ottomans NOT GUILTY of genocide against the Armenians not once but TWICE in the trials!!!!!!!!

Yet when they needed the Armenians votes they made it a crime to deny the genocide!

What a joke!

When did this happen?? I would love to know. Please dont tell me at the psuedo Malta Tribunial. If you can supply me with a link or some material on this I would love to read about it.