Cyprus-Forum.com

[Get Real!]

Let's just suppose for a moment that another state, say Syria (just so as not to give an EU example which complicates things much more), recognised TRNC. And let's suppose we're just dealing with the question of airline flights to/from TRNC. So long as Syria complied with international air traffic treaty law, air passenger law (all of which Syria is a contracting party), and other international conventions on air travel and aircraft control etc, then there is no barrier - that is, no illegality - to Syria establishing routes with TRNC.

That’s an easy one actually… you can read about the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) here…

http://www.icao.int/icao/en/strategic_objectives.htm

So given that Ercan airport is NOT registered with the ICAO the RoC can easily win such a case by submitting a formal complaint to the ICAO and if that fails take the ICAO to the ICJ!

There is an answer to everything and the RoC has actually become an EXPERT in these matters for reasons we all understand.

Regards, GR.

[CopperLine]

Get Real,
Not quite so easy ... after all several airlines fly in and out of Ercan notwithstanding its ICAO non-registration status. These same airlines are also flying to and from UK and virtually every other EU state. So Ercan's non-ICAO registration is not in itself a prohibition on flights to and from TRNC.
Granted, it is an annoyance and irritation to those airlines and passengers that routing via Turkey is required, but it is not an effective prohibition of flights. If Syria, to use my example, started flights to TRNC then that opens up another route and so in piecemeal fashion (or in a sudden flood) the scenario changes.

On the second point about - ICAO and ICJ - how exactly could such a case be taken to the ICJ ? And by whom ? If this is such an easy matter then why hasn't Turkey or Turkish-based airlines operating to/from TRNC been subject to an action at the ICJ ?

[Get Real!]

Get Real,
Not quite so easy ... after all several airlines fly in and out of Ercan notwithstanding its ICAO non-registration status. These same airlines are also flying to and from UK and virtually every other EU state. So Ercan's non-ICAO registration is not in itself a prohibition on flights to and from TRNC.
Granted, it is an annoyance and irritation to those airlines and passengers that routing via Turkey is required, but it is not an effective prohibition of flights. If Syria, to use my example, started flights to TRNC then that opens up another route and so in piecemeal fashion (or in a sudden flood) the scenario changes.

On the second point about - ICAO and ICJ - how exactly could such a case be taken to the ICJ ? And by whom ? If this is such an easy matter then why hasn't Turkey or Turkish-based airlines operating to/from TRNC been subject to an action at the ICJ ?

You’ve answered that yourself… “routing via Turkey is required” so they’re not direct flights.

With regards to the ICAO I’ll quote directly from their site:

To implement this vision, the Organization has established the following Strategic Objectives for the period 2005-2010:

A. Safety - Enhance global civil aviation safety
B. Security - Enhance global civil aviation security
C. Environmental Protection - Minimize the adverse effect of global civil aviation on the environment
D. Efficiency - Enhance the efficiency of aviation operations
E. Continuity - Maintain the continuity of aviation operations
F. Rule of Law - Strengthen law governing international civil aviation

So, if the ICAO fails to implement/enforce what it claims to then yes, I believe that the RoC would have a very legitimate reason/case to take them to the International Court of Justice (ICJ).

[Andros]

Get Real,

Good. I was happy to read your responses, and that you appear to have dropped any criticism and sought to answer my questions - Thank you. Now we are Greek Cypriots again. And, I hope we are on the same side in this fight.

Your answers were a pleasure to read. However, seeing that you appear to know what you are talking about, in a reference point of view, I would like to ask you one question with reference to the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) regarding the so-called “Ercan Airport” and the law.

If the CAA are so powerful and influential, and can prevent direct flights to the so-called Ercan airport as it's not a registered country as such, why is that Turkish Airlines is able to fly to Ercan - Regardless of it being direct or indirect, land British tourists in the airport without out even a single word said against it. I read in an article in one of the previous issues of the Economist immediately after the Annan Plan referendum that there's practically no difference between “landing an aircraft or passing through Turkey's airspace”. Therefore, whether or not Turkey chooses to land its aircraft heading for Ercan, or only fly through Turkish airspace is irrelevant in the written text of rules and regulations set out by the CAA, thus meaning, according to my understanding, that direct flight are actually operating to the so-called TRNC.

So, are we being mocked by the UK when they display ISTANBUL - TK for flights that are actually, and obviously, booked and destined for Ercan, seeing that these bookings are made prior to their flights, are clearly displayed on their plan tickets when they check-in at Stansted Airport? Some even fly direct with their so-called "TRNC" passports from the UK!

In 2005, I took the initiative of flying to northern Cyprus via Standsted as a British national only claiming not to know any spoken Greek with a newly obtained British Passport. Together with a friend of mine, we both purchased tickets from "Happy Days" travel agent in Haringey with the following flight plan:

Stansted - Istanbul - Ercan
Ercan - Istanbul - Stansted (Return)

On the day of flight, we checked in at Stansted where the person at the checking desk asked me if I was Greek Cypriot, where I replied by saying "No, I am a Cypriot, is there a problem". We took flight to Istanbul - landed - stayed in the plane for approx 25 minutes while it supposedly picked up some more transit passengers - and then flew to Ercan in approx 1hour and 40 minutes. When we landed at the airport, I admit, I was very scared - but was told not to worry. I handed my British passport to the immigration officer who took a quick snap-shot look at my picture and my air-ticket, looked up at me and said, "Welcome to northern Cyprus" IN GREEK!

I don't know about all of you, but my jaw instantly hit the ground in amazement with no words to say. I accepted my passport and air-ticket back and walked in, flying out two days later out of pure anger.

The point I am making here Get Real, is that the Turkish Cypriots don't care about who visits the north as they are out to discredit every legal fight we try to make by simply accepting everything that is presented to them - even the Annan Plan! I even believe that the removal or the border, and the setting up of the many check-points across the border, seeing that they were Dentash’s initiative, all seem to coincidental in forcing us to a Turkish-made solution.

Can you imagine if I was an Englishman visiting northern Cyprus, what do you believe he would think?

Exactly - there's a huge difference between fighting the Cyprus situation in a court of law with what the everyday tourist is willing to accept. The Orams case proved that, so does the many British tourists who have purchased ex-Greek Cypriot land/property. Our struggle appears to be more than just a few lines, articles or even chapters of law binding resolutions and statements. If it were just that, Turkey would have been immediately removed from Cyprus within a month after the invasion in 1974!

I am merely pointing out the practical elements we have to deal with. Those elements that the Cyprus government has clearly failed to prevent. How many other cases are we yet to witness?

[phoenix]

Andros where in Cyprus where you born ?
This information would have been in your passport (even if British) surely?

[shahmaran]

Andros where in Cyprus where you born ?
This information would have been in your passport (even if British) surely?

He was clearly "too scared" to notice

[phoenix]

Andros where in Cyprus where you born ?
This information would have been in your passport (even if British) surely?

He was clearly "too scared" to notice

Who whose "too scared"? Immigration or Andros?

[Viewpoint]

There are no restrictions on GC visiting the TRNC. You GCs have these misconcieved ideas about the north fed to you by your propaganda machines, come see for yourselves its no different to any other country thats what really makes GCs sick.

[Piratis]

..

[CopperLine]

I'm astonished that people seem to be astonished at the flights to and from Ercan. I use it all the time, very nice airport, reasonable and good service whether you are going north or south.

BUt the point, Get Real, is that the ICAO can't 'be taken' to the ICJ. You've got the law wrong again. The ICJ hears disputes between states, not with international organisations (except UN agencies for which it may give an advisory opinion).

So again, if flights came to /from Syria or Germany or anywhere else - without touching down in Turkey - the most that RoC could do is express its outrage and threaten or actually impose some kind of sanctions aganist the violators. That is a political decision, not a matter of law.