Cyprus-Forum.com

[garbitsch]

cannedmoose, what is problematic with this issue is that Turkey refuses to call the mass murdering of Armenians as "Genocide". Not only is this illogical, but it is something that has been used by the organic enemies of the Turks and Turkish Republic. Turkey would have recognised the attrocities commited towards the Armenians, unless there was a pressure from some countries that this was a Genocide, but nothingelse. This ignores the facts that the Ottoman Empire was under the occupation of Greece, Britain, France, Italy, and Armenians backed by Russia. It would be so fun not to claim that not a singe Turk was killed during the occupation of Anatolia by these five nations. The Ottomans were not pursuing a racist goal, as Hitler did, to erase the Armenian race from the world. If it was, they would have done this to the other communities within the Empire. The world should acknowledge that many Turks were also slaughtered by the invading nations (Armenians had their own terrorist groups which had raided many Turkish and Kurdish villages, killing the inhabitants). The problem can be solved, if the Armenians stop claiming that it was a genocide but mass murderings etc, and the Turkish republic appologises for the Armenian losses. Genocide is something very extreme and cannot and will never be accepted by Turks and Turkish Republic. If this will not make us part of the civilised world, then let it be.

[cannedmoose]

A good response garbitsch. I'm no expert so I can't claim to know the full story behind it. If there was wrong on both sides, i.e. the Armenians pursuing a campaign of extermination against the local Turks, then BOTH sides have a duty to apologise for wrongs against each other.

In the German analogy, Germany has apologised for its policy of expansionism and extermination of certain groups. In kind, by way of reconciliation, the British apologised to Germany for the destruction of Dresden in which 100,000 Germans were killed. It's this kind of attonement that we should look to. Revisionism it may be, but if it makes the world a better place to live in, who cares?

[garbitsch]

cannedmoose, Armenians wanted to establish an Armenian Republic in Eastern Turkey, but they were outnumbered by the Turks who were expelled from Balkans due to the defeat of Turks in the Balkan wars. I was lectured by the famous Ottoman Historian "Stanford Shaw"
(http://www.history.ucla.edu/shaw/). He is one of the scholars that are against the genocide, and he argued that the Armenians had moved to Russia, since they believed they would have better life under the Orthodox Russian rule. However things were not the same when they were in Ottoman Empire. They were not satisfied and wanted to go back to their homes in Eastern Turkey. At the same time, the expelled Turks were settled in the houses left by the Armenians. And when the Armenians got back, they saw their houses being taken by the Turks. There started intercommunal violences. There was no Armenian aim to "exterminate" all Turks, but there were clashes between the two parties. These are deep historical facts, which Armenia and other countries deny, or say don't care. That's why I support the solution of this problems, if the historians from both countries and from other coutries come together and investigate the archives. This was offered by Turkey, but rejected by Armenia, since they believe this is not an issue of history, but issue of "recognition". Armenians claim that they would only discuss the number of causalities but not whether it was a genocide or not. This is something not acceptable by Turkey. Besides, the reason why the border is closed because Armenia claims that the eastern part of Turkey are the Armenian lands under Turkish occupation...

[cannedmoose]

I'll defer to you on this one garbitsch, Turko-Armenian history isn't my specialty. Thanks for the info anyways.

[unnamedman]

- Can anyone tell me where are the tombs of all armenian that killed after 1915?

- I can't see a point in that ottomans decided to kill all of the armenians in turkey so suddenly? We know that, both armenians and turks lived together for centuries in these lands.

- Why does armenian goverment reject to open their archives beside that turkish goverment open all of the archives of republic to whole world?

- Why no body talk about occupation of 5 nations in Turkey in these years and killed Turks? ( France, UK, Greece, Italy,Armenia backed by Russia)

- Do you know that why the code of moving armenians had been declared?

- Do you know that , how many turks killed by Armenian Terrorist groups (not civillians) during the World War I? (it's accepted by everyone including these terrorist group's archives.)

I believe that everyone will see the reals, but it'll be hard for everyone. So armenians will continue to write new stories, and keep going racism against Turks.

I don't hate Armenians, but they hate me when ever i introduce myself to an armenian.

I have never burnt a flag of armenia but their most famous band "System of A Down" did it like a show.

You can look this site.

http://www.tallarmeniantale.com

[magikthrill]

oh wow, system of a down is Armenian? Thats crazy.

ANyway, can you please elaborate on the following:

Why no body talk about occupation of 5 nations in Turkey in these years and killed Turks? ( France, UK, Greece, Italy,Armenia backed by Russia)

Also occupation and genocide are 2 different things. Turkey is occupying Cyprus but hey have yet to perform (fine alleged to be fair) genocide on the island.

[unnamedman]

oh wow, system of a down is Armenian? Thats crazy.

ANyway, can you please elaborate on the following:

Why no body talk about occupation of 5 nations in Turkey in these years and killed Turks? ( France, UK, Greece, Italy,Armenia backed by Russia)

Also occupation and genocide are 2 different things. Turkey is occupying Cyprus but hey have yet to perform (fine alleged to be fair) genocide on the island.

if you want to make a comment, please look at the topic's name, and what i have written. Please, answer all of my questions, not only one that you can answer.

[unnamedman]

oh wow, system of a down is Armenian? Thats crazy.

ANyway, can you please elaborate on the following:

Why no body talk about occupation of 5 nations in Turkey in these years and killed Turks? ( France, UK, Greece, Italy,Armenia backed by Russia)

Also occupation and genocide are 2 different things. Turkey is occupying Cyprus but hey have yet to perform (fine alleged to be fair) genocide on the island.

if you want to make a comment, please look at the topic's name, and what i have written. Please, answer all of my questions, not only one that you can answer.

and yes, soad, is armenian. If you don't know, learn!

[unnamedman]

oh wow, system of a down is Armenian? Thats crazy.

ANyway, can you please elaborate on the following:

Why no body talk about occupation of 5 nations in Turkey in these years and killed Turks? ( France, UK, Greece, Italy,Armenia backed by Russia)

Also occupation and genocide are 2 different things. Turkey is occupying Cyprus but hey have yet to perform (fine alleged to be fair) genocide on the island.

For You Man,

I don't want to translate it. But if you find some to do it or else if you know Turkish. You will see the who had wanted to do a genocide in island.

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Papadopulos'un Türkleri İmha Planı
27.04.2005 15:48
''Türkleri temizlemek için 75 dakikamız var ve bunu yapacak planlara ve imkana sahibiz'' Bu sözler "Türkleri İmha Planı" hazırlayan Rum Lider Papadopulos'a ait.....
Güney Kıbrıs Rum yönetimi lideri Tasos Papadopulos'un, 1963-1964 döneminde, Kıbrıslı Türk sivilleri imha etmeyi planladığı ve ''Türkleri temizlemek için 75 dakikamız var ve bunu yapacak planlara ve imkana sahibiz'' dediği belirtildi.
Alithia gazetesinin haberine göre, Rum yazar Makarios Drusiotis piyasaya yeni çıkan ''İlk Taksim: 1963-1964 Kıbrıs'' isimli son kitabında, Papadopulos'un 1963-1964 döneminde Kıbrıslı Türk sivilleri imha etme planına karıştığını belgelerle ortaya koydu.
Makarios Drusiotis, kitabında, Papadopulos'un, Kıbrıslı Türk sivilleri imha etme planına karıştığını, ancak o günkü Milli Muhafız Ordusu Komutanı'nın reddetmesi nedeniyle planın uygulanmadığını tarihi belgelerle doğruladı.
Kitapta, Papadopulos'un Amerikalılara ''Kıbrıslı Rumların, iç durumu düzenlemeye yönelik planları olduğunu'' ilettiği Ağustos 1964 tarihli mesajına atıfta bulunuluyor. Drusiotis'in kitabına göre, o zamanlar Çalışma Bakanı ve Akritas Örgütü Asbaşkanı olan Tasos Papadopulos'un mesajı şöyle:
''Türk filosu 12 deniz mili sınırını ihlal ederse bunu 'istilanın' başlangıcı sayacağız. Hesaplarımıza göre bu bize, kendimizi savunabilmemiz amacıyla Kıbrıslı Türkleri temizlememiz için 75 dakika veriyor. Bunu yapacak plana ve imkana sahibiz.'' Yazar, bu konuda, Amerikan Ulusal Arşivi (National Archives of Research Administration) belgelerine de atıfta bulunuyor.

''BAKANLAR KURULU KARARI OLDU''

''Papadopulos'un, Kıbrıslı Türkleri temizleme tehdidinin daha sonra Bakanlar Kurulu'nun kararı olduğunu'' yazan Drusiotis, şunları kaydediyor:
''General Karayannis'in söylediğine göre, bu karar kendisine, bakan Yorgacis tarafından iletilerek kendisinden, verilen sürenin sonunda yerle bir edilmek üzere iki Türk köyü göstermesi istendi. Karayannis, 'savunmasız insanları öldürme' görevini üstlenmeyi reddettiğini anlatıyor.
Anayasa değişikliği önerileri hazırlandığında, Türk 'istilası' olması durumunda sivil Kıbrıslı Türklerin canlı kalkan olarak kullanılması, 1963'ten beri Kıbrıs Rum liderliğinin planıydı. Kıbrıslı Türklerin katledilmesi tehdidi, 'istila' tehdidinin olduğu her sefer gündeme geliyordu.''

[garbitsch]

Magik, SOAD is an Armenian-American group and in one part of their song "Chop Suey"s video, a Turkish flag is being burt, but later this scene was replaced by another scene, where the group members eat Chinese food. They also have a special song for the so-called Armenian genocide. Although they are so hateful towards Turks, their CDs are being bought by thousands in Turkey. It's so sad that they attach politics to music.