Cyprus-Forum.com

[observer]

Phoenix,

It has not been my experience that changes have always been sought through diplomatic means. And as all Cypriots are very hot-blooded, I think that violence will always be a strong liklihood.




Piratis,

Nice thought, but when has there ever been a Cyprus without discriminations? Even among GCs there are discriminations. Belong to the right political party or have the right friend and every door is open. Yes, and it is the same for us too.

That is why very few TCs want to be ruled by GCs, and even fewer GCs would want to be ruled by TCs. Or even live next to them if the polls are accurate. We must start with the world as we find it, and we do not believe we will find that GCs will treat us without discrimination.

[Nikitas]

Observer

Good point about the lack of meritocracy in modern Cyprus. As much as we like to think othewise who you know is still very important in getting ahead. Put into that mix the influence of family, something unavoidable in a small society like Cyprus and the mix is complete. Which brings us to the point that discrimination is not so much intercommunal but a more chronic pattern of life on the island. One solution? To give less emphasis on the government as an employer and more to private enterprise.

[Piratis]

Nice thought, but when has there ever been a Cyprus without discriminations? Even among GCs there are discriminations. Belong to the right political party or have the right friend and every door is open. Yes, and it is the same for us too.

That is why very few TCs want to be ruled by GCs, and even fewer GCs would want to be ruled by TCs. Or even live next to them if the polls are accurate. We must start with the world as we find it, and we do not believe we will find that GCs will treat us without discrimination.

Well, the ethnic discrimination between Muslim Turks and Christian Greeks started with the Ottoman rule. They also gave us the rusfetti. So you can't blame us for that.

Saying that because there might be some illegal discrimination the "solution" is to make ethnic discriminations legal and part of the law is like saying that every country where some illegal discrimination exists (practically almost every country) should adopt the Apartheid. Maybe we should legalize slavery again as well?

I didn't say that occasions of discrimination will never occur. However such thing would be illegal and the person will have every right to seek justice in Cyprus and EU courts.

On the other hand, what you want is to make discriminations against us something legal, and if we even dare to challenge those discriminations you feel that you should have the right to use force against us:

2004 mikkie2's wish, that the GCs had voted for the A Plan then contested it in the European Courts.

No speculation on my parts, save for the liklihood that guns would come into use if mikkie2's wish had been carried out.

[phoenix]

Phoenix,

It has not been my experience that changes have always been sought through diplomatic means. And as all Cypriots are very hot-blooded, I think that violence will always be a strong liklihood.

Racial stereotyping is no excuse for policy making.
How would you rate the Italians, the French etc.?
And are the Chinese so cool they do not invade their neighbours?

What is the point you are making?

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

Any conflicts that we had in the past with TCs were exactly because they collaborated with the British and the Turks to fight against us and our rights.

I like the above is classic Piratis thinks Tcs should have helped Gc fight for their "rights" for enosis and the annihilation of TCs.

[observer]

The point that I am trying to make is that given our history, to pass now to a unitary state, where the majority rules, would fill me with alarm. It would mean that there would be an automatic GC majority since voting would be on ethnic grounds, not for political reasons. Promotion and appointments would be on ethnic grounds, and TCs would come off second-best every time.

The treatment given by many GCs to foreign workers, with who they have no bad history, is often poor. I think that it will be many times worse with TCs with who there is bad feelings already.

All over Europe (and the world) ethnically different peoples who history put together are parting in friendly (sometimes not so friendly) fashion. Regional autonomy in Spain for Catalonians and Basques, Czecoslovakia now two countries, Regional Parliaments in UK, Yugoslavia in so many pieces I forget all their names, the former Soviet Union. There has not been a proper government in Belgium for almost a year because the two language groups have fallen out with each other. Yet you want us to move in the opposite direction with our history!

To me, a very loose federation makes sense, and has made sense since it was first agreed in 1974.

[Piratis]

Piratis

Any conflicts that we had in the past with TCs were exactly because they collaborated with the British and the Turks to fight against us and our rights.

I like the above is classic Piratis thinks Tcs should have helped Gc fight for their "rights" for enosis and the annihilation of TCs.

GCs were fighting against the British colonialists. Not a single TC was harmed by GCs until you joined the British and you started the fight against us and our rights.

You killed 10s of thousands and ethically cleansed 100s of thousands and you talk about "annihilation of TCs"?? But of course that is a crucial "step" in the Turkish propaganda.

The 4 steps of the Turkish propaganda

Step 1) Deny every crime the Turks committed against others (Cypriots, Armenians, Kurds etc)

Step 2) Search in history to find some casualties they had from those others. It doesn't matter if for every 1 casualty they had they have caused 1000 on the other side, due to "Step 1" above. After all for them "One Turk equals the whole world"

Step 3) Exaggerate their findings from "Step 2" by a factor of 1000.
Here we see the first interesting results of their propaganda. Some 800 Turks killed in Cyprus is considered a genocide, but 10s of thousands of Cypriots, or 1.5 millions of Armenians that they killed is not, according to their propaganda.

Step 4) Now they determined that they are the innocent ones and the others are the bad ones, they decide that they have the right to use yet more brute force to violate even more the rights of others. If by any chance those others react and cause to the Turks some casualties then the Turkish casualties will be later used in "Step 2", while of course the Turkish aggression that for once more was the cause of the problem will be denied as per "Step 1".

[observer]

Piratis:
"Well, the ethnic discrimination between Muslim Turks and Christian Greeks started with the Ottoman rule"

I think the word 'barbarian' was invented by the Greeks to describe anyone who couldn't speak Greek, and that sounds pretty discriminatory to me!

... and this was when Turks were still living in caves in Mongolia according to one contributor!

[shahmaran]

Ye and no thanks to the Crusades

Just more jargon to blame the Turks with, Piratis you are relentless!

[-mikkie2-]

"2004 – If mikkie 2’s policy were followed, say yes to A plan then start challenging it in the courts! And on past experience through the gun too. "

Observer,

I like it when you take my statements out of context!

My point is that the Anan plan was so flawed many of its provisions could be challenged in the EU courts, by both GC's and TC's. That is the problem with implementing a plan that is not agreed by both sides prior to a referendum. The only way to solve the problem is for an agreed solution by both sides, not imposed solutions or ones that favour one side over the other.

It amazes me the abundant stupidity and small mindedness of people in forums such as this when they can't analyse and form coherent views and arguments on any particular subject and instead revert to the tried and tested nationalist idiotic, moronic, pea-brained views of each side. That is why I have stayed away from these forums.

In any case, Cyprus has been so messed up now I don't hold any hope for anything. All I see is a bunch of idiots throwing blame onto the other with nothing constructive to put forward. Forums such as these should be bringing people together and to build a mutual understanding. Instead, everything reverts to the base level nationalist views and mud slinging.