Cyprus-Forum.com

[EPSILON]

Nikitas, thank you opening your heart and telling us your believes and aspirations. Obviously we disagree but there is nothing wrong with that. For example, you claim that bizonality is partition. I say, it does not have to be and it is up to us to make it work for it is the only realistic way forward. If we denounce the Makarios/Denktash and Kyprianou/Denktash agreements then I am afraid it will be the end of Cyprus.

Kasoulides only recently aquired the letters exchanged between Papadopoulos and Denktash. I do not know how he got hold of them but this is immaterial.

Also, before you go on wild accusations about black prostitutes etc you should learn first that generalising is a bad thing. Sure there are crooked, corrupt and bad politicians but this does not give you the right to say that they are all like this. Also, beware of little stories people whisper in your ear. Such people arealways looking to make a sensationalist impact, by appearing to be near decision-making centres. Avoid them.

Get Real, last time you counted, how many army divisions did we have? Now that the focus of Turkey is on Iraq, can we pull a quick one on the dreaded enemy?

A clarification here is required. When you say "we" you mean what?
If you mean Tcs and Gcs you are out of the story/game. The winner of the war was Turkey and it can not be away from a solution.Stop dreaming and try to find a better proposal for solution satisying also the winner of the war- real politics Sir!!!

Epsilon I am really confused by a lot of what you say (I know it's probably me . . .). BUT when you say Turkey was the winner of the war, do you mean then that Greece was the loser of the war?
Are you talking about who gets the prize of Cyprus in this war between Turkey and Greece?

My friend if the loser of the war was Greece then the Gcs would have a clear picture of what they are because Greece , at least was fight for them.Unfortunately Cyprus was the loser of the war since Greece was under the control of a dictatorship (which occurred big damages in mainlanmd Greece also).

The point of my posting is that despite Greece or Cyprus was the loser- our side was the loser of the war and this is not taken into account when we are thinking about a solution.

[phoenix]

Nikitas, thank you opening your heart and telling us your believes and aspirations. Obviously we disagree but there is nothing wrong with that. For example, you claim that bizonality is partition. I say, it does not have to be and it is up to us to make it work for it is the only realistic way forward. If we denounce the Makarios/Denktash and Kyprianou/Denktash agreements then I am afraid it will be the end of Cyprus.

Kasoulides only recently aquired the letters exchanged between Papadopoulos and Denktash. I do not know how he got hold of them but this is immaterial.

Also, before you go on wild accusations about black prostitutes etc you should learn first that generalising is a bad thing. Sure there are crooked, corrupt and bad politicians but this does not give you the right to say that they are all like this. Also, beware of little stories people whisper in your ear. Such people arealways looking to make a sensationalist impact, by appearing to be near decision-making centres. Avoid them.

Get Real, last time you counted, how many army divisions did we have? Now that the focus of Turkey is on Iraq, can we pull a quick one on the dreaded enemy?

A clarification here is required. When you say "we" you mean what?
If you mean Tcs and Gcs you are out of the story/game. The winner of the war was Turkey and it can not be away from a solution.Stop dreaming and try to find a better proposal for solution satisying also the winner of the war- real politics Sir!!!

Epsilon I am really confused by a lot of what you say (I know it's probably me . . .). BUT when you say Turkey was the winner of the war, do you mean then that Greece was the loser of the war?
Are you talking about who gets the prize of Cyprus in this war between Turkey and Greece?

My friend if the loser of the war was Greece then the Gcs would have a clear picture of what they are because Greece , at least was fight for them.Unfortunately Cyprus was the loser of the war since Greece was under the control of a dictatorship (which occurred big damages in mainlanmd Greece also).

The point of my posting is that despite Greece or Cyprus was the loser- our side was the loser of the war and this is not taken into account when we are thinking about a solution.

This "war" that Cyprus lost to the Turks, a "war" it did not announce or go into but was merely an unwary pawn . . . at that time, and immediately preceding this "war" with Turkey, Cyprus was in a similar "war" with Greece. Presumably then Greece lost this war to both Cyprus and Turkey. Cyprus then only lost to Turkey.

So why would Greece want to have another go at setting us up for another war, this time fighting to free Cyprus from the Turks?

What would it want in exchange for this assistance?

[EPSILON]

Nikitas, thank you opening your heart and telling us your believes and aspirations. Obviously we disagree but there is nothing wrong with that. For example, you claim that bizonality is partition. I say, it does not have to be and it is up to us to make it work for it is the only realistic way forward. If we denounce the Makarios/Denktash and Kyprianou/Denktash agreements then I am afraid it will be the end of Cyprus.

Kasoulides only recently aquired the letters exchanged between Papadopoulos and Denktash. I do not know how he got hold of them but this is immaterial.

Also, before you go on wild accusations about black prostitutes etc you should learn first that generalising is a bad thing. Sure there are crooked, corrupt and bad politicians but this does not give you the right to say that they are all like this. Also, beware of little stories people whisper in your ear. Such people arealways looking to make a sensationalist impact, by appearing to be near decision-making centres. Avoid them.

Get Real, last time you counted, how many army divisions did we have? Now that the focus of Turkey is on Iraq, can we pull a quick one on the dreaded enemy?

A clarification here is required. When you say "we" you mean what?
If you mean Tcs and Gcs you are out of the story/game. The winner of the war was Turkey and it can not be away from a solution.Stop dreaming and try to find a better proposal for solution satisying also the winner of the war- real politics Sir!!!

Epsilon I am really confused by a lot of what you say (I know it's probably me . . .). BUT when you say Turkey was the winner of the war, do you mean then that Greece was the loser of the war?
Are you talking about who gets the prize of Cyprus in this war between Turkey and Greece?

My friend if the loser of the war was Greece then the Gcs would have a clear picture of what they are because Greece , at least was fight for them.Unfortunately Cyprus was the loser of the war since Greece was under the control of a dictatorship (which occurred big damages in mainlanmd Greece also).

The point of my posting is that despite Greece or Cyprus was the loser- our side was the loser of the war and this is not taken into account when we are thinking about a solution.

This "war" that Cyprus lost to the Turks, a "war" it did not announce or go into but was merely an unwary pawn . . . at that time, and immediately preceding this "war" with Turkey, Cyprus was in a similar "war" with Greece. Presumably then Greece lost this war to both Cyprus and Turkey. Cyprus then only lost to Turkey.

So why would Greece want to have another go at setting us up for another war, this time fighting to free Cyprus from the Turks?

What would it want in exchange for this assistance?

Who says that Greece want to fight to free Cyprus from Turks? Greece, particularly the last 5-6 years give a sheet about Cyprus case. They just want to solve the problem to through away the trouple. Greece not interested-Turkey won the war - what Gcs can do? If the still dreaming unification with majority's rights they are saying lies (the politicians).The people are cobnfused because nobody tell them the real facts.

[phoenix]

Nikitas, thank you opening your heart and telling us your believes and aspirations. Obviously we disagree but there is nothing wrong with that. For example, you claim that bizonality is partition. I say, it does not have to be and it is up to us to make it work for it is the only realistic way forward. If we denounce the Makarios/Denktash and Kyprianou/Denktash agreements then I am afraid it will be the end of Cyprus.

Kasoulides only recently aquired the letters exchanged between Papadopoulos and Denktash. I do not know how he got hold of them but this is immaterial.

Also, before you go on wild accusations about black prostitutes etc you should learn first that generalising is a bad thing. Sure there are crooked, corrupt and bad politicians but this does not give you the right to say that they are all like this. Also, beware of little stories people whisper in your ear. Such people arealways looking to make a sensationalist impact, by appearing to be near decision-making centres. Avoid them.

Get Real, last time you counted, how many army divisions did we have? Now that the focus of Turkey is on Iraq, can we pull a quick one on the dreaded enemy?

A clarification here is required. When you say "we" you mean what?
If you mean Tcs and Gcs you are out of the story/game. The winner of the war was Turkey and it can not be away from a solution.Stop dreaming and try to find a better proposal for solution satisying also the winner of the war- real politics Sir!!!

Epsilon I am really confused by a lot of what you say (I know it's probably me . . .). BUT when you say Turkey was the winner of the war, do you mean then that Greece was the loser of the war?
Are you talking about who gets the prize of Cyprus in this war between Turkey and Greece?

My friend if the loser of the war was Greece then the Gcs would have a clear picture of what they are because Greece , at least was fight for them.Unfortunately Cyprus was the loser of the war since Greece was under the control of a dictatorship (which occurred big damages in mainlanmd Greece also).

The point of my posting is that despite Greece or Cyprus was the loser- our side was the loser of the war and this is not taken into account when we are thinking about a solution.

This "war" that Cyprus lost to the Turks, a "war" it did not announce or go into but was merely an unwary pawn . . . at that time, and immediately preceding this "war" with Turkey, Cyprus was in a similar "war" with Greece. Presumably then Greece lost this war to both Cyprus and Turkey. Cyprus then only lost to Turkey.

So why would Greece want to have another go at setting us up for another war, this time fighting to free Cyprus from the Turks?

What would it want in exchange for this assistance?

Who says that Greece want to fight to free Cyprus from Turks? Greece, particularly the last 5-6 years give a sheet about Cyprus case. They just want to solve the problem to through away the trouple. Greece not interested-Turkey won the war - what Gcs can do? If the still dreaming unification with majority's rights they are saying lies (the politicians).The people are cobnfused because nobody tell them the real facts.

Well Epsilon, I am still confused because you are not really saying anything then!

[EPSILON]

Nikitas, thank you opening your heart and telling us your believes and aspirations. Obviously we disagree but there is nothing wrong with that. For example, you claim that bizonality is partition. I say, it does not have to be and it is up to us to make it work for it is the only realistic way forward. If we denounce the Makarios/Denktash and Kyprianou/Denktash agreements then I am afraid it will be the end of Cyprus.

Kasoulides only recently aquired the letters exchanged between Papadopoulos and Denktash. I do not know how he got hold of them but this is immaterial.

Also, before you go on wild accusations about black prostitutes etc you should learn first that generalising is a bad thing. Sure there are crooked, corrupt and bad politicians but this does not give you the right to say that they are all like this. Also, beware of little stories people whisper in your ear. Such people arealways looking to make a sensationalist impact, by appearing to be near decision-making centres. Avoid them.

Get Real, last time you counted, how many army divisions did we have? Now that the focus of Turkey is on Iraq, can we pull a quick one on the dreaded enemy?

A clarification here is required. When you say "we" you mean what?
If you mean Tcs and Gcs you are out of the story/game. The winner of the war was Turkey and it can not be away from a solution.Stop dreaming and try to find a better proposal for solution satisying also the winner of the war- real politics Sir!!!

Epsilon I am really confused by a lot of what you say (I know it's probably me . . .). BUT when you say Turkey was the winner of the war, do you mean then that Greece was the loser of the war?
Are you talking about who gets the prize of Cyprus in this war between Turkey and Greece?

My friend if the loser of the war was Greece then the Gcs would have a clear picture of what they are because Greece , at least was fight for them.Unfortunately Cyprus was the loser of the war since Greece was under the control of a dictatorship (which occurred big damages in mainlanmd Greece also).

The point of my posting is that despite Greece or Cyprus was the loser- our side was the loser of the war and this is not taken into account when we are thinking about a solution.

This "war" that Cyprus lost to the Turks, a "war" it did not announce or go into but was merely an unwary pawn . . . at that time, and immediately preceding this "war" with Turkey, Cyprus was in a similar "war" with Greece. Presumably then Greece lost this war to both Cyprus and Turkey. Cyprus then only lost to Turkey.

So why would Greece want to have another go at setting us up for another war, this time fighting to free Cyprus from the Turks?

What would it want in exchange for this assistance?

Who says that Greece want to fight to free Cyprus from Turks? Greece, particularly the last 5-6 years give a sheet about Cyprus case. They just want to solve the problem to through away the trouple. Greece not interested-Turkey won the war - what Gcs can do? If the still dreaming unification with majority's rights they are saying lies (the politicians).The people are cobnfused because nobody tell them the real facts.

Well Epsilon, I am still confused because you are not really saying anything then!

Well, I do not know what else i could say. I consider that above statement is clear. I am asking Gcs to realize the real facts/situation and to re-program their intentions/requests in line with these real facrs, always finding ways to save as m uch as they can after a war which they lost.

[T_C]

Bloody hell! Whats happening in the forum today?

It's like the coup all over again!

[Bananiot]

This is why we need enlightened leaders that can lead not the ones that follow the spasmodic cries of the masses. Such leaders are hard to come by if you are a people that number less than a million. Papadopoulos, for example, did not dare reject the plan by himself. He placed the burden on the shoulders of a confused people, after he was elected on the promise that he would solve the cyprob on the basis of the Annan Plan. Vasiliou meant well, but he was a prisoner of AKEL and Klerides, during his first five year term was at the mercy of DIKO, the most corrupt party in Cyprus.

Someone said that Papadopoulos has the best minister ever, the finance Minister. Does he know though that Sarris voted yes to the solution?

[Kifeas]

What a lot of fuss and spin out of such a profound web of deceit by Bananiot!

I will tell you a story. A true story! Early April 2003 and Denktash is keen to bury the UN plan for a solution. His best bet is Papadopoulos. He sends him a note in which he makes the following proposals:

1. Forget about the Annan Plan and start negotiations on a new base.
2. Begin trading between the two communities.
3. Free movement with minimum fuss.
4. Set up a conciliation committee.
5. Immediate return of Varosha to the RoC if Papadopoulos agrees.

Papadopoulos takes the proposals to the National Council and and dictates the answer. He outright rejects the proposals and accuses Denktash of trying to evade the Annan Plan. We will stick to the Annan Plan, he answers defiantly!

Denktash, upon receiving this response, goes on to implement some of the proposals unilaterally. Thus he makes his move and opens the borders on April 23 2003.

What do we have today?

Papadopoulos sends a letter in response to Moon's urges with proposals. One of the proposals is for the setting up of a conciliation committee. Trade between the two communities takes places and there is free movement on both sides of the divide. Furthermore, he has buried the Annan Plan and is now asking for talks on a new basis.

He has in fact granted all the wishes of Denktash. With one exemption. Varosha is still to be seen with binoculars by the betrayed inhabitats of the fair city.

This is the great leader!

Of course Bananiot, Papadopoulos would not have fallen for Denktash proposal! Don’t you know why? You do of course, but as always you choose to deceive the unaware forum members, through half truths and distortions!

Let me ask you, why do you choose to hide the fact that what Papadopoulos rejected and buried was not called Annan plan, simply because there wasn’t a single one Annan plan, but five instead? Why don’t you tell people that what Papadopoulos eventually (rightfully) buried was called Annan plan 5, and what Denktash was proposing him to burry was called Annan plan 2?

Why don’t you tell them the difference between the one and the other, and that there was a gradual shift of philosophy among the various Annan plan versions; starting from a federation formula without virgin births and on the basis of a RoC evolution (an anathema for Denktash and the rest of partitionists, but one that would have been potentially accepted by both the GC and TC societies –remember the pro-Annan demonstrations by thousands of TCs in the streets at the time;) and ending up with a profound virgin birth confederative formula in Annan plan 5 with all the elements of a disguised partition in place, a blessing for Denktash and an anathema for the GCs this time?

Of course Papadopoulos naturally would not have wanted to make such a favour to Denktash, to accept to burry something that could have been acceptable in theory by the GC society, in spite of the fact that it was not yet complete (Annan plans 1, 2 & 3!) After all he wanted a solution, and this is evidence to the fact that he indeed does!

[Pyrpolizer]

Bananiot,

I am no fan of Pap. But when he rejected the plan he gave reasons that happened to coincide with long held principles like the retention of sovereignty and the lack of UN guarantees for the areas to be returned. In other words we were left at the mercy of Turkey in regard to most areas while the Turkish Cypriot demands were all satisfied as of day one.

Sure Turkey will have to agree to any eventual settlement, but the idea is to have the settlement formulated in such a way so that Turkey cannot foul it up while it is being implemented. As for access to the media, Droushiots does not have access to the government controlled RIK, but I read him in Politis and several mainland Greek papers. He is the darling of the DOL group which by the way does the exact same thing to people who disagree with Droushiotis, it refuses to publish their responses to him and to professor Iraklidis.

The deal offered by Denktash, Famagusta for a No to Annan is beneficial looking at it in hindishgt. The logical retort is that Pap intended to have the changes to the plan accepted and from friends who were present at Burgenstock I know that efforts were made to put in some last minute alterations. These were ignored, I suspect because they were given in the wrong form- a 44 page document, compared to the one page 11 point document given by the Turkish side. We all forget the climate at Burgenstock that night, when Erdogan arrived after a carefully laid campaign of promises, that he would be presenting a generous territorial map etc. In the end he gloated that he got everything he wanted without removing a single soldier or giving one square inch of land.

Let us not forget who we are dealing with here. And looking at the other andidates do you see anyone who can negotiate with the Turks? At least to the point of having the balls to say No if nothing else? Kassoulides was foreign minister for years, what did he do back then? Christofias has not presented any specific plans or ideas. None of them seem to grasp the territorial and geopolitical aspects of the Cyprus issue.

As usual very well said Nikitas. On the other hand are we really sure that Ppadopoulos can grasp the territorial and geopolitical aspects of the Cyprus issue? I mean there have not been any negotiations all these years to have him tested on anything.

On the contrary, he lost his veto against Turkey without her having opened her ports and airports remember? In my opinion he seems ready to sell our very few cards for almost nothing. May I remind you also the other matter regarding the Ledra street opening. He started from asking complete demilitarisation, removal of all signs and border checkpoints (as if they are customs controls) and his latest proposal in ONLY for removal of troops from the very near area around.
I don't know if you've been t the end of Ledras street lately, but for me the opening of that passage and the direct view of those 2 huge red flags they fly there, is enough reason not to visit Ledras street again.

I have too many suspicions against Papadopoulos and although I was always against the communist ideology, I will vote Christofias this time, because imo he is our only hope.

[Pyrpolizer]

You think, Nikitas, that it takes balls to say no? This is perhaps the reason you invest hope on Papadopoulos. He has rejected all plans that were formulated on Cyprus since 1959! He even rejected the London-Zurich agreements. My friend, balls are needed in order to say yes!

Papadopoulos will never agree to share Cyprus with the Turkish Cypriots, even if we were given the best and most workable plan. I remind you that when the Security Council was asked (by us) to offer assurances that Turkey would abide by what were about to be agreed, Papadopoulos sent Iacovou to Moscow to make sure that Russia wouldn't comply.

You say he is the best negotiator. He has been negotiating for decades, even as the representative of the Greek Cypriot community. Show me one success he has had all those years. He accepted Annan Plan no. 3 and negotiated it to its final form, only to say that he achieved nothing and that we should reject it. Oh, yes, Erdogan's comments played their part in our decision. This is how we function in a way, in Cyprus. Had Erdogan said different we would have voted for it in great numbers. Contrary to conventional wisdom, Turks are not stupid.

I also think that you are guilty, Nikitas, of judging without thinking hard first. Okay, we are all guilty of doing this at times, but I think it is miserable to pass comment on any argument, of the type "what do you expect, it is Droushiotis". The honourable thing to do is to debate and argue the points raised, not the person that wrote them.

May i remind you that according to Makarios Droushiotis, the Russians did not comply not because they made US a favor, but because Turkey also asked them the same thing (with serious returns). And that they admitted later it is the Turks that they served not us