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HALAL MEAT

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Postby phoenix » Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:36 pm

devil wrote:
phoenix wrote:
However, the reasons for the differences in alimentary canal lengths is due to the fact that carnivores have evolved to have SHORT canals because they have to eliminate the semi-digested meat faster to avoid the ill-effects of the toxins that would be produced in the longer alimentary canals, if allowed to fester.


You may think that but I couldn't possibly agree. It is shorter because the proteins in meat are more easily assimilated than vegetable proteins which are far less concentrated. Shorter is simply more efficient. If what you say were true, then carnivores would simply be unable to live because the bones they crunch often cause constipation lasting up to a week (ask any large dog owner!); with your speculation, they would accumulate toxins. Au contraire, any toxin in the food is much more likely to be assimilated by herbivores with their kilometres of pipework. That is why Alpine cattle herders always give the summer pastures a once-over for toxic plants before the spring transhumance (this was the subject of a novel by C-F Ramuz, The Reign of the Evil One, where the "evil one" was a plant that sickened the cattle on an alp and poisoned their milk and created murderous rifts within a community that believed it was the work of Satan: a good read if you can get hold of a copy).


Just when I thought you were getting it :roll:

You are back to being completely wrong, again devil. I am not interested in fiction on this matter, but scientific fact and comparative physiology.

Comparisons between, alimentary canals, stomach, acid secretions, teeth excretory kidneys etc., place Humans in the plant (especially fruit) eating end of the spectrum.

Here's an extract and the link to help you understand.

Comparative Digestive Physiology

Among the various species throughout nature, the length of their particular alimentary canals also differs greatly in relation to their natural food. The gut of the carnivore is 3-6 times the length of their body. They require a short, smooth, fast-acting gut since their natural flesh diet becomes quite toxic and cannot be retained within the intestine for long without poisonous putrefaction taking place. The gut of the herbivore is sacculated for greater surface area, and is 30 times the length of their body. Its herb and grass diet is coarse and fibrous, requiring longer digestion to break down cellulose. The length of the omnivore's alimentary canal is generally 6 times its body trunk size. The gut of the frugivore (like humans) is also sacculated and is 12 times the length of its body. The length of the adult human alimentary canal is about 30 feet. The human digestive tract is about four times as long as the carnivores. The intestine of the carnivore is short and smooth in order to dissolve food rapidly and pass it quickly out of the system prior to the flesh putrefying. The human digestive tract is corrugated for the specific purpose of retaining food as long as possible until all nutriment has been extracted, which is the worst possible condition for the digestion and processing of flesh foods. Meat moves quickly through the carnivore's digestive tract and is quickly expelled. The human lengthy intestine cannot handle low-fiber foods including meat and dairy very quickly at all. As a consequence, animal foods decrease the motility of the human intestine and putrefaction almost invariably occurs (as evidenced by foul smelling stools and flatulence), resulting in the release of many poisonous by-products as the low-fiber food passes through, ever so slowly. In humans, eventual constipation may develop on a meat-centered diet. Colon cancer is also common, both of which are rare or non-existent on a high-fiber diet centered around raw fruits and vegetables.




http://www.iol.ie/~creature/BiologicalAdaptations.htm
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Postby Nikitas » Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:08 pm

Whoever wrote that scientific paper should have a few days on columbra, molohia and gigantes plaki! Sounds more like vegan propaganda than a scientific paper. Where are the references to vitamin B12 and PABA?

Choosing not to eat meat is fine, digging up nonsense to justify it is peculiar. Plant toxicity has been documented not only for wild plants but also for domestic plants that are eaten long term. Nature gave plants ways to defend themselves against herbivores and the best defense against that is a varied diet.
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Postby phoenix » Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:13 pm

Nikitas wrote:Whoever wrote that scientific paper should have a few days on columbra, molohia and gigantes plaki! Sounds more like vegan propaganda than a scientific paper. Where are the references to vitamin B12 and PABA?

Choosing not to eat meat is fine, digging up nonsense to justify it is peculiar. Plant toxicity has been documented not only for wild plants but also for domestic plants that are eaten long term. Nature gave plants ways to defend themselves against herbivores and the best defense against that is a varied diet.


Nikitas I am not talking about toxicity from poisonous plants . . . which on the whole most species have learnt to avoid (usually due to bitter taste).

It's the toxins produced in the gut from meat which digests too slowly in our more-vegetarian adapted guts that is of concern!
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Postby Nikitas » Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:58 pm

Phoenix

Can you mention just one primitive tribe that exists on an exclusively plant diet? My studies show that primitive tribes living exclusively from gathering still use animal derived proteins. They are the closest example we have of a totally natural way of life. Just a quick rundown- Pygmies, Bushmen, Amazon tribes, Pacific Islanders, Papua New Guinea people, Australian Aborigines, all the north American Indians, Eskimos and there must be more.

Referring to the Eskimo and Inuit, if their gut could not process their almost exclusively meat and fish diet they would not have survived as they did. It was only when the white man reached them and they started on plant derived carbohydrates that they discovered diabetes. You should also read up on the Paleo Diet and look at Atkin's medical writings, not his diet books. The so called diet pyramid based on carbohydrates is, according to Atkin, the cause of the diabetes epidemic that is sweeping the west.

How many people do you know who have survived long term on eating raw fruit and vegetables only? Why is it that important vitamins like A and Beta Carotene are more easily assimilated from cooked veggies? Why is vitamin B12 only available in animal products and vitamin B12 deficiency a special problem for vegans?
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Postby phoenix » Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:23 am

Nikitas wrote:Phoenix

Can you mention just one primitive tribe that exists on an exclusively plant diet? My studies show that primitive tribes living exclusively from gathering still use animal derived proteins. They are the closest example we have of a totally natural way of life. Just a quick rundown- Pygmies, Bushmen, Amazon tribes, Pacific Islanders, Papua New Guinea people, Australian Aborigines, all the north American Indians, Eskimos and there must be more.

Referring to the Eskimo and Inuit, if their gut could not process their almost exclusively meat and fish diet they would not have survived as they did. It was only when the white man reached them and they started on plant derived carbohydrates that they discovered diabetes. You should also read up on the Paleo Diet and look at Atkin's medical writings, not his diet books. The so called diet pyramid based on carbohydrates is, according to Atkin, the cause of the diabetes epidemic that is sweeping the west.

How many people do you know who have survived long term on eating raw fruit and vegetables only? Why is it that important vitamins like A and Beta Carotene are more easily assimilated from cooked veggies? Why is vitamin B12 only available in animal products and vitamin B12 deficiency a special problem for vegans?


Nikitas
This has gone too far. If you look back through my posts I clearly stated the healthiest diets are those that are balanced . . . but with only low amounts of meat and preferably as fish / bird.

However, I will NOT advocate consumption of mammals. This is where I personally draw the line . . . not just for ethical / moral reasons but being mammals they are too close to us biochemically and the likelihood of disease transfer is high. This says to me that we are NOT adapted to eat fellow mammals.

I was vegan in my twenties . . . and became anaemic. Although I was bouncing with health otherwise. So it is a healthy diet if supplemented with an odd egg or yogurt.

A totally protein diet such as that of the Inuit is most unhealthy. They have a low life expectancy and significantly lowered I.Q . . . . which can be reversed by a healthier diet.

As far as diabetes . . . it's not plant derived carbohydrates that are the problem . . . but white man's COCA COLA! :D
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Postby devil » Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:16 am

The human lengthy intestine cannot handle low-fiber foods including meat and dairy very quickly at all. As a consequence, animal foods decrease the motility of the human intestine and putrefaction almost invariably occurs (as evidenced by foul smelling stools and flatulence)


How stupid can you be to espouse such rubbish? As I mentioned before, one of my vegan friends farts like a jet engine. Which foods are known to provoke flatulence? Onions and other edible liliaceae and legumes, especially beans. Which animals are known to produce the most enteric fermentation (i.e., intestinal gas)? Ruminants, esp. cattle, ovines, to the extent that the methane content forms a significant contribution to natural greenhouse gas emissions (esp. from the great plains of Africa). And a cowpat is every bit as disagreeable to step in as dog shit.
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Let's get back to Cyprus for a while!

Postby cymart » Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:43 am

The vetererinary office at the British Base in Dhekelia made a visit to the Kophinou abbatoir quite a few years ago and afterwards compiled a report which was quite damning,regarding animal welfare there and several other factors to do with hygiene etc.Although the hygiene aspects have been sorted out and E.U. approval obtained for it to keep operating etc.I wonder about the animal welfare?Just having modern equipment for stunning etc. does not of course mean that the staff will treat the animals any better,even though there are new laws already in force here about this.At least they have closed all those dreadful village abbatoirs-they were little white buildings outside each village with a water tank on the roof and no windows except slats near the top for ventilation-just like the gas-chambers at Mauthausen nazi death camp in Austria!
As for the abbatoirs in the north,maybe its better not to even think about animal welfare in them????
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Re: Let's get back to Cyprus for a while!

Postby devil » Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:59 am

cymart wrote:The vetererinary office at the British Base in Dhekelia made a visit to the Kophinou abbatoir quite a few years ago and afterwards compiled a report which was quite damning,regarding animal welfare there and several other factors to do with hygiene etc.Although the hygiene aspects have been sorted out and E.U. approval obtained for it to keep operating etc.I wonder about the animal welfare?Just having modern equipment for stunning etc. does not of course mean that the staff will treat the animals any better,even though there are new laws already in force here about this.At least they have closed all those dreadful village abbatoirs-they were little white buildings outside each village with a water tank on the roof and no windows except slats near the top for ventilation-just like the gas-chambers at Mauthausen nazi death camp in Austria!
As for the abbatoirs in the north,maybe its better not to even think about animal welfare in them????


AAAHHH! That's another story. Naturally, animal welfare in abattoirs, and in the transport of animals to them, is a very thorny problem and not only in this country. What must be realised is that the meat from a stressed animal is not as good as from an unstressed one (when you are stressed, your muscles become tight, don't they?). Abattoirs therefore have every interest in reducing the stress of slaughter to a minimum. This is difficult as animals seem to guess why they are there. The ideal is to let the animals graze for 1-2 days beforehand in a field adjoining the entrance to the slaughter house and leading the animals in singly for their fate, so that they see nothing untoward before stunning.

Although I'm a meat eater, I admit I don't like to think what happens before I see the meat in the butchers!

Subsidiary question: if foot and mouth is confirmed at Dromolaxia, will Kofinou be in the 10 km exclusion zone? If so, meat prices may shoot up.
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Re: Let's get back to Cyprus for a while!

Postby denizaksulu » Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:15 am

cymart wrote:The vetererinary office at the British Base in Dhekelia made a visit to the Kophinou abbatoir quite a few years ago and afterwards compiled a report which was quite damning,regarding animal welfare there and several other factors to do with hygiene etc.Although the hygiene aspects have been sorted out and E.U. approval obtained for it to keep operating etc.I wonder about the animal welfare?Just having modern equipment for stunning etc. does not of course mean that the staff will treat the animals any better,even though there are new laws already in force here about this.At least they have closed all those dreadful village abbatoirs-they were little white buildings outside each village with a water tank on the roof and no windows except slats near the top for ventilation-just like the gas-chambers at Mauthausen nazi death camp in Austria!
As for the abbatoirs in the north,maybe its better not to even think about animal welfare in them????



Best not to throw accusations about willy nilly, in spite of your four question marks. get some proof so we can all jump up and down.

Now thats a good BOY. :wink:
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hi

Postby jam argaka » Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:19 pm

I only asked a simple question and yes i did receive some good replies and i have learnt a lot from the genuine people that replied, on the other hand the rest of the moaning barstewards keep it shut lol

I'm coming to Cyprus on the 31st October and will try find the butchers that sell THE HALAL MEAT if not ill ask again.

THANKS ONCE AGAIN

JAM

my mobile number is 07786033640 if any local people want to have a drink etc
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