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[Nikitas]

Phoenix,

The healthiest and longerst living people I have ever met are hunters. My friend Christos died at age 101, he had taken his first hunting before there were private cars in Greece, he hunted every year till he was 99 and then had to give up due to old age. Manolis hunted till age 80, then he had to give up due to arthritis, and then there is the presidedn of our hunting association, who hunts at age 86. I can cite many more, and none of them have any of the degenerative diseases of the vegetarians I know. Anecdotal evidence but evidence nevertheless!

Read my post again, carefully. And by the way, you never eat and offal or livers of wild game. Ecologically think how the world would be without animal farming but managed to produce wild game instead. I have been dealing with this professionally for 25 years, I have examined most angles, there is no comparison!

[phoenix]

Phoenix you are invited to a feast this lunch time ,Roast Lamb and Yorkshire Pudding , Roast Pork with sage , and a fat juicy chicken all served with roasted and boiled vegetables , roast and jacket potatoes , home made gravy and chipolatas !!!
I baked the bread last night and will be serving lunch at 2.30 pm !!

Miltiades, thank you and Kali Orexi

However, without putting you off your meal and I am sure you are joking with so many species of animals being roasted for your consumption . . .

Their revenge will be that you will take up to 72 hours to digest the protein. Meanwhile many toxins will be produced in your system as they VERY slowly pass through. Those toxins are carcinogenic. Add to that the preservatives from the chipolatas (nitrates) and you are feasting on a time bomb.

Still, as I said Kali Orexi and far be it from me to put someone off their food . . .

[phoenix]

Phoenix,

The healthiest and longerst living people I have ever met are hunters. My friend Christos died at age 101, he had taken his first hunting before there were private cars in Greece, he hunted every year till he was 99 and then had to give up due to old age. Manolis hunted till age 80, then he had to give up due to arthritis, and then there is the presidedn of our hunting association, who hunts at age 86. I can cite many more, and none of them have any of the degenerative diseases of the vegetarians I know. Anecdotal evidence but evidence nevertheless!

Read my post again, carefully. And by the way, you never eat and offal or livers of wild game. Ecologically think how the world would be without animal farming but managed to produce wild game instead. I have been dealing with this professionally for 25 years, I have examined most angles, there is no comparison!

Nikitas

The longevity of your hunting friends is probably related to the fact that they are more active. Add to that the fact that they are outdoors in the fresh air and that is where the benefits are derived from. If they didn't eat the meat they may have lived to 110 or 120 . . . they obviously also had the LONGEVITY GENE which is another area altogether.

I maintain, meat consumption and a sedentary lifestyle are the greatest contributors to disease.

[devil]

Their revenge will be that you will take up to 72 hours to digest the protein. Meanwhile many toxins will be produced in your system as they VERY slowly pass through. Those toxins are carcinogenic.

As usual, you distort the truth by implications. If you read http://www.ivu.org/oxveg/Talks/veglongevity.html
you will see that vegetarians have no statistically significant lower death rates from cancer than non-vegetarians, therefore your statement is pure scare tactics. I agree that a vegetarian diet will normally lower cholesterol levels and reduce the risk of some heart disease, on condition that the diet is well balanced, which is very difficult.

I would also point out that carnivores have the shortest alimentary tracts and fastest transit time and herbivores have the longest ones, compared with their size. Omnivores, including humans, have intermediate lengths and transit times. This is because herbivores (vegetarians) need the long transit time to extract what little goodness there is bound up in the food they eat, whereas the food of carnivores and omnivores is richer and easier to extract.

I agree about the chipolatas and all other charcuterie, especially factory-made Cypriot cochonneries such as square-legged ham, sausages, salamis, lountza, xiromeri and suchlike. These are all swimming in nitrites, nitrates, and other chemicals and are likely to cause far more harm than Miltiades' lamb, pork and chicken combined. Another point to consider is the amount of salt added to these. One pastourmas and you have twice the recommended daily intake of salt! The unfortunate thing is that some of these are nice (not Cypriot "ham", though).

[phoenix]

Their revenge will be that you will take up to 72 hours to digest the protein. Meanwhile many toxins will be produced in your system as they VERY slowly pass through. Those toxins are carcinogenic.

As usual, you distort the truth by implications. If you read http://www.ivu.org/oxveg/Talks/veglongevity.html
you will see that vegetarians have no statistically significant lower death rates from cancer than non-vegetarians, therefore your statement is pure scare tactics. I agree that a vegetarian diet will normally lower cholesterol levels and reduce the risk of some heart disease, on condition that the diet is well balanced, which is very difficult.

I would also point out that carnivores have the shortest alimentary tracts and fastest transit time and herbivores have the longest ones, compared with their size. Omnivores, including humans, have intermediate lengths and transit times. This is because herbivores (vegetarians) need the long transit time to extract what little goodness there is bound up in the food they eat, whereas the food of carnivores and omnivores is richer and easier to extract.
I agree about the chipolatas and all other charcuterie, especially factory-made Cypriot cochonneries such as square-legged ham, sausages, salamis, lountza, xiromeri and suchlike. These are all swimming in nitrites, nitrates, and other chemicals and are likely to cause far more harm than Miltiades' lamb, pork and chicken combined. Another point to consider is the amount of salt added to these. One pastourmas and you have twice the recommended daily intake of salt! The unfortunate thing is that some of these are nice (not Cypriot "ham", though).

Well I'm glad we are gleaning areas for agreement.

However, the reasons for the differences in alimentary canal lengths is due to the fact that carnivores have evolved to have SHORT canals because they have to eliminate the semi-digested meat faster to avoid the ill-effects of the toxins that would be produced in the longer alimentary canals, if allowed to fester.

Herbivores can afford the longer canals because plant material does not produce the same toxins.

Our alimentary canals are longer than they should be to allow the quick removal of semi-digested meat products, and so over-consumption of meat causes the problems (already discussed).

[Southerner]

Still, as I said Kali Orexi and far be it from me to put someone off their food . . .

In the telephone exchange where I worked there was a guy who used to eat all the organic none meat food, sunflower seeds, blah, blah, blah he would then lite up a cigarette.

[phoenix]

Still, as I said Kali Orexi and far be it from me to put someone off their food . . .

In the telephone exchange where I worked there was a guy who used to eat all the organic none meat food, sunflower seeds, blah, blah, blah he would then lite up a cigarette.

Aaaahhh . . . but he was actively trying to minimise the dangers from his choice of smoking. That's good surely?

It's all about balance.

And a little bit of what you fancy does you good!

[Nikitas]

OVERCONSUMPTION OF MEAT

There is the problem. We are designed to eat meat, but not all the time. The problem is not in meat eating but in doing it to excess as in modern humans. Game eating is by necessity seasonal. Also game meat has on tentch of the fat of domestic animals and the fat it has is in the Omega 3 category.

Back in the 80s I researched this and came upon the findings of an archaeologist from Columbia University, he had an Armenian name ending in -ian. I can retrieve it for you if it is important. Anyway, what he found while excavating American Indian sites dating from about 800 to 1000 AD. was that hunting tribes had better health, were more robust and larger than those of non hunting and presumably less meat eating cultures.

Similar archaeological findings have been made in Europe and Mesopotamia. The consnensus now is that we were bigger and healthier when we were hunters.

The surprise finding though was that the farmers had more injuries inflicted by weapons, showing that inter human conflict was part of the farming culture. This finding did not surprise me. Hunters have no territorial domains to protect therefore no cause to fight. Game, especially migrant species, are an ephemeral presence, and what reduces them to possession is the skill of the hunter and that skill cannot be controlled by war and slavery. All these wonderful institutions came to us via the change from hunting to farming and more vegetarian than meat eating cultures.

As for the health aspect, read Professor MacArnes book "Not All in the Mind" about the effect of many types of foods and his personal choice to opt for a meat (with fat) diet for himself at age 59. I tried to interview him when he was 84 but he was not available, he had gone trekking in the Australian outback. His colleagues who had predicted he was going to die of circulatory diseases were all dead by that time.

[devil]

However, the reasons for the differences in alimentary canal lengths is due to the fact that carnivores have evolved to have SHORT canals because they have to eliminate the semi-digested meat faster to avoid the ill-effects of the toxins that would be produced in the longer alimentary canals, if allowed to fester.

You may think that but I couldn't possibly agree. It is shorter because the proteins in meat are more easily assimilated than vegetable proteins which are far less concentrated. Shorter is simply more efficient. If what you say were true, then carnivores would simply be unable to live because the bones they crunch often cause constipation lasting up to a week (ask any large dog owner!); with your speculation, they would accumulate toxins. Au contraire, any toxin in the food is much more likely to be assimilated by herbivores with their kilometres of pipework. That is why Alpine cattle herders always give the summer pastures a once-over for toxic plants before the spring transhumance (this was the subject of a novel by C-F Ramuz, The Reign of the Evil One, where the "evil one" was a plant that sickened the cattle on an alp and poisoned their milk and created murderous rifts within a community that believed it was the work of Satan: a good read if you can get hold of a copy).

[sarahUK]

mmm nice rare steak