Cyprus-Forum.com

[Tim Drayton]

I have recently published Etymological Dictionary of Cypriot Turkish published by the professional linguist Orhan Kabatash

Who just happens to be my uncle!

Please convey my congratulations. I speak as a graduate in linguistics, and this is a work of a very high academic standard. It is interesting to note how quite a lot of words used in Cypriot Turkish have their origins in regional Anatolian dialects, and often the same word has become extinct now in Turkey.

[iceman]

You should be asking yourself the question why they don't see you and people who think and talk like you as Turks iceman or do you really think that they are going to trust you when you keep telling them you are different to them?

No matter how much you like to see yourself as a Turk they will NEVER see or treat you as one of them...I know this because i have 33 years of experience living with them.How long have you lived with them Eric?Have you ever been in a dispute or argument with a mainland Turk??
The first think they will tell you is "Shut the fuck up...we saved your ass from the Greeks and this land is ours now....you dont like it?...Fuck off..!!"
I learned my history by living it Eric not from google or my elders stories who left Cyprus 40-50 years ago!!

The problem is that not only do some TCs see themselves as different to mainland Turks but they even see themselves as being different to those TCs who have been living outside of the TRNC for a while and specially those who were born in foreign countries. Why is that iceman?

I suppose that has to do with the fact that TC's in Cyprus believe those who left the island at times of trouble deserted their community in time of need...

[Pyrpolizer]

Tim congrats man that was a great post...

[Nikitas]

Iceman

The reasoning in the argument is a gem "we saved your ass" so your land is theirs! At least the mainland Greeks have a different and a little less demeaning approach "you assholes did not want Union, so fuck you, you are on your own" that and calling us "Saracens". A pair of motherlands to die for, hey!!!!

[Pyrpolizer]

I went to Greece for work in 1977. They stuck me the nick of "Makarios". One day someone asked me "Hey Makarios what language do you speak among you in Cyprus? Turkish?" See my accent was too heavy for them, too Turkish like. Another one didn't know where Cyprus was on the map. When they heard I knew English they suddenly started wanting "Makarios" to come with them at night, as they had a date with some tourist women and they thought if "Makarios" was there to translate for them, they would fuck the ladies in a second... For me it was just uncomrihendable how could anyone ever date a woman without even been able to say anything else than yes and no between them.

I was all alone there did not even have a TV or radio to hear the news. One morning when I went to work someone came straight to me saying "hey Makarios, you dad died, it's all over the news"....

I was constantly trying to hide my accent and speak soft mainland Greek like, i started having inferiority complexes, I felt total stranger. Whenever I would meet with another Cypriot I was afraid everybody would turn looking at us. For me it was a totally different world there. Different ethics, different priorities in life, so many things different.

Anyway i only lasted two more months after "my dad" did. So me "Makarios' left Greece.

[oranos64]

Those who leave are Turks and those who come are Turks

quote]

Do the Tc's agree with Ericas comment regarding the exodus of TC's and the settling of mainland Turks in northern Cyprus?

i dont want to offend anyone ...but i have a friend over from the TRNC ..who is is doing some work for me and he is telling me that he hardly met a single TC in 3 days ...nicosia is full of TURKS and he reckons their is a mass exodus out ...and the Turkish settlers replacing them ...indeed his family have moved to poland and Bulgaria for work instead is this true ?

are the T.C LEAVING AND BEING REPLACED BY THE MAINLAND VULTURES

[T_C]

I have recently published Etymological Dictionary of Cypriot Turkish published by the professional linguist Orhan Kabatash

Who just happens to be my uncle!

Please convey my congratulations. I speak as a graduate in linguistics, and this is a work of a very high academic standard. It is interesting to note how quite a lot of words used in Cypriot Turkish have their origins in regional Anatolian dialects, and often the same word has become extinct now in Turkey.

Will do Tim. He's a literature teacher so anything to do with language is his thing really. From what I know he's also very interested in Greek and Ottoman writing since he has many Greek and Ottoman Turkish language books on his bookshelves. I don't think he can read AND understand Greek but as far as I know he knows the alphabet but needs a dictionary.

I've only briefly read the book myself but I intend to have a closer look now that you mentioned it.

[repulsewarrior]

Tim congrats man that was a great post...

ditto for me...

eric, to be precise you are a Turcophone, and there is no shame in that.

you may be Turkish but you are Cypriot. And there is no shame in that either.

read this whole thread, some of which is interesting. would like to repeat that Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots validate each other.

as for the settlers, if the land was divided, as opposed to two parts, bi zonally, it would be posssible for settlers to gain homes rather than houses. Whole communities who were displaced will have the opportunity to sustain themselves without destroying the fabric of the society which surrounds them. It will make minorities a responsibility of the the two National Assemblies, in a bicommunal State, where the Republic of Cyprus is commited to defending our Individual Rights without an ethnic bias, and where all citizens are equal. Enclaves in the north and the south will allow for repopulation and redress for all the harm that has taken place since the independance of this island's people.

Cypriots will demonstrate their commitment to the betterment of the Human condition to the rest of Mankind by showing this kind of commitment to inclusiveness, respect, and cooperation, above a Nationalistic interest. united as peoples.

[zan]

Tim

Although I understand what you are saying here you could actually be writting about any country in the world. Have you been out of the UK for long. Those bloody eastern Europeans taking our homes jobs and women. What a bloody liberty eh!!!

Yesterday on the news: Very few of these "imigrants" are the ones at the lowere end of the scale of wage earners. Those that did not have skills have got them and are contributing to the economy rather than the parasites they are portrayed to be. This does not stop the moaning and the racist remarks from the people I work with and the peoples houses I work in.

The point I am trying to make is that people always feel threatened by "stangers" on their shores. T_C went and hated what he saw. Iceman seems het up about something but will not say it outright. Halil is quantifying the blame as I do. We all have our ideas and predudices. I met a guy that came back from a long holiday the other day, a TC, and he was having a go at the TCs saying that they were sitting around while the Turks were working hard and opening shops and restaurants. We all see what we want to see.

Of course there is the problem that we are being outnumbered but that is the game we had to play given the conditions we were put under by GCs. I really would like to see the numbers of forieners in the "RoC" and how many people are disgruntled with them there. I would include those that the "RoC" have seen fit to give citisenship to regardless of what Greek land they came from, Pontians being one of them.

This stance that some are holding on this forum about being Cypriot first is just a load of claptrap. All over the world, countries are tryin g to atract large numbers of people to help the economy and in the case of the EU, give them extra leverage. Why is it that the GCs want to expell people instead??? Why is it tthat they only want to expell the Turks????This is much more than just racism. The political agendas are behind this and getting the TC numbers down to managible levels. Sure we would all like our cake and eat it but Cyprus is Cyprus and at the moment it is in two pieces. We have our problems with Turkey and people like Iceman have every right to be angry. With recognition we can put this right. We have no other choice otherwise. We would rather be Turkish that Greek....Not through predudice but because that is what we are. If and when the "RoC" decide that they can build a proper CYprus for Cypriots to live in then we can all be Cypriots. That does not exist and in my oppinion will never exist. I will be happy to be proved wronng....Long live that man who can give that gift to Cyprus.

I have lived in the UK all my life and love it here (although that is becoming hard to justify at the moment) and have had workmates accept me as "not a bad wog". I will not allow that in my own country of Cyprus. It cannot happen in the TRNC/KKTC.


"One Turk leaves and one Turk returns".......You betcha.....Turks from all over the world.....Don't try and make me feel ashamed about being Turkish. What I am constantly ashamed of though is being Cypriot because we cannot even sort out our own shit and keep blaming others. I can't count the number of times I have been asked if I am Greek because I am from Cyprus. When I say I am Turkish Cypriot then they say...."OH! You don't like each other do you".....I don't know which one pisses me off most.

Zan,
Thanks for your polite and well-argued reply.
I have been away from my computer for a while, but I would just like to take this opportunity to reply.
You should realise that I only entered this thread because it annoyed me to see an ignorant blockhead like Eric Dayi being given the credit for coming up with an original idea, when he was only parrotting a famous quote by Denktash that has now become a cliche. I only wanted to point this out. However, being addressed directly by this rude oaf was like a red rag to a bull, and I could not resist the temptatation to enter a longer post refuting his basic claim that there are Turkish Cypriots who welcome mass immigration from Anatolia. I assert that you cannot find a Turkish Cypriot LIVING IN CYPRUS who supports mass, indiscriminate immigration to Cyprus from Turkey. I stand by that claim, and will continue to do so until such time as I am contradicted.
By the way, I will be very happy to retract the remarks I made about Eric Dayi if he starts to show that he is capable of raising his level of argument to that befitting a civilised human being, and one of the qualities I admire about Cypriots is their ability to engage in civilised debate and respect the views of others. So raise your game to Cypriot standards, Eric uncle, please!
You raise much wider points which go beyond those I was trying to make in my post. Yes, you are right that there are many sides to this coin. Of course, hostility shown to immigrants by the host community is a universal phenomenon. Believe me, my stomach turns to hear you say that certain people in Britian can even nowadays refer to you as "not a bad wog". I find this totally disgusting. In my student days I was involved in the fight against the racist National Front in Britain and still would be involved in the same kind of fight if I was there. As you rightly surmise I have been away from my own country for a long time. I tried to resettle in London in 1999-2002 but for various reasons it didn't work out. Britain no longer feels to me like the country I once knew and I feel like a total starnger when I go there. I am sure this is a feeling that all long-term emigrants from Cyprus experience when they come here. I hear Turkish Cypriots from Limassol describe their heartbreak at seeing what has happened to Limassol now that, years later, they have the opportunity of visiting. Yet, I love Limassol as it is now. Still, I digress.
Yes, there is a very different side to the coin if you look at things through the eyes of the settlers from Turkey. If I can return to the book Büyükelçiler Anlat?yor (Ambassadors tell their stories) which I quoted from before - and I strongy recommend it to anybody who reads Turkish and is interested in Cyprus - several of the ambassadors interviewed complain about the system of institutionalised racism which exists in the de facto state north of the green line. I cannot find the page now, but one of them refers to an article of the penal code which envisages a higher penalty for a certain offence for settlers than it does for Cypriots. If this is not institutionalised racism, what is it? Did even the laws in South Africa under apartheid have higher penalties for blacks than for whites for the same offence? I doubt it. I have sat in coffee houses frequented by settlers in the north and have also hear their stories. How is it that mainlaind Turks have been occupying the same geographic space as Cypriots for over thirty years now, but there has been so little integration, to the extent that you can identify every coffee shop as either being Cypriot or settler. Does that not tell you something? Stories of teenagers from remote villages in Turkey who arrive on tourist visas, do the dirty jobs no Cypriots want to do, like working on building sites even though they have never seen a building site in their life and know nothing about work safety rules and protective equipment, and if they suffer an accident and are left incapacitated (not a rare event apparently) since they are working illegally and have no insurance they have no recourse against their employeers, they have to be taken back to their villages in Turkey as best they can to be forgotten and looked after by their families there for the rest of their lives. Don't worry, there is a ready stream of fresh immigrants ready to replace them. I am sorry Zan, you say it cannot happen in Cyprus. I say that racism and discrimination is the reality faced by people who come to Cyprus from Turkey, whether or not you want to accept this. Interestingly, this comment also applies to tourists who just come for a holiday to Cyprus from Turkey - I could give large numbers of anecdotal examples that I have heard from people in Turkey about their visits to Cyprus.
Incidentally, I see a story in this week's Cyprus Weekly (page 14) about yet another Syrian illegal immigrant who died in an accident on a building site in the south of Cyprus, so the same thing goes on evrywhere.
However, the question of immigration from Turkey is a very complex question. Let us leave aside the point that under international law it is illegal for a country to settle its own population in territory that it has conquered militarily. The mass immigration that we have witnessed from Turkey to Cyprus is not a purely economic question of migrants seeking a better life. To an extent it was also a conscious policy aimed at changing the cultural make-up of Cyprus and anchoring this newly captured territory more firmly to the mainland. Then if we look at the background to Denktash's famous statement, made at a time when large numbers of native Cypriots seemed to be voting with their feet and departing from his "ethnically-cleansed Turkish paradise" such that one of the reasons large numbers of settlers had to be brought in was to prevent a serious fall in the population, it takes on very different meaning. For him to dismiss this with a shug of the shoulder and the claim that "those who leave are Turks, those who arrive are Turks" may perhaps go down in history as the biggest gaffe made by this man, who in general is a skilled propagandist. The point remains that if one of the aims of this policy was to rob Turkish Cypriots of their unique cultural identity, it appears to have had the opposite effect and served to reinforce the huge gulf that separates mainland Turkish culture from Cypriot Turkish culture. Otherwise why are you still sitting in separate coffee houses after thirty-three years of co-existence?
So, you consider yourself Turkish first and Cypriot second. Of course, this is your right and I respect your opinion. All I can say as an outsider who knows mainland Turkey very well, Turkish Cypriots quite well and has had the opportunity to get to know Greek Cypriots over the past couple of years, a vast gulf separates mainland Turkish culture from Turkish Cypriot culture, wheras from what I have seen, very little indeed separates Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots in cultural terms. I personally think you are Cypriot first and foremost. If we examine the historical context, it is not suprising. A large number of Turks were settled here following the Ottoman conquest, and the ranks of their community were swelled by linobambakis, and this community then for centuries lived cheek by jowl with Greek Cypriots at a time when there was no mass media and people rarely travelled further than the nearest town. Over these centuries a unique culture emerged in which both sides retained their distinct identity but at the same time gradually moved closer to each other in a whole host of ways. The linguistic evidence is there for all to see. I have a recently published Etymological Dictionary of Cypriot Turkish published by the professional linguist Orhan Kabata?, which I think is much better than any of the amateur works that have previously been produced. Can anyone deny the existence of large numbers of words of Greek/Cypriot Greek origin used in the daily speech of Turkish Cypriots? With reference to the word that has been discussed in this thread, there is an entry on page 234 for the word "fica" (as it is spelled in this book) which is described as meaning "dried seaweed or tree cuttings" and is said to derive from the Greek word ??????? (if I have got that right). There is an interesting annex to this book showing the words of Turkish origin used in Cypriot Greek, and this runs to about 45 pages. I was amazed the first time I heard a Greek Cypriot market worker address another jokingly with a word beginning with 'P' which is used as a swear word in Turkish. I thought at the time I had imagined this, but have come to realise that this Turkish word is regularly used here. Does this linguistic evidence not bear testimony to the many centuries in which Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots lived as brothers? To a model of multicultural harmony which embraced diversity to the extent that, in mixed villages, Greek Cypriots did the Turkish Cypriots' daily chores during the latters' religious festivals, and the Turkish Cypriots reciprocated when their time came round. To days when both communities joined together in rebellions against the central authority. OK, then came modernity, the age of nationalism and with it a whole new sense of identity developed. These ethnic differences assumed a whole new significance and nothing could ever be as it had before. I just wonder, now, in a post modern era when the age of nationalism has passed, is it possible for the people of Cyprus to return to this golden age of brotherly coexistence? Certain developments suggest that it could eventually happen. Several hundred Turkish Cypriots now live pemanently south of the green line and I have not heard of a single incident suffered by any of them. I don't know. It is for Cypriots themselves to decide where they want to go and what they want to do about it. No outsiders will ever bring lasting peace to this island, so thanks Zan for giving me an opportunity to get a few things off my chest, and apart from adding a few factual comments I hope to remain a passive observer of the debates on these threads in the future.

Thanks Tim for the reply and the compliments. I hope you will not be totally passive in all of this as I have a lot more to say and perhaps you can think about them and answer appropriately.

I am going to tackle your points randomly because I hope you can appreciate that there is an awful lot there and I don't want to go into a massively long post with quotes and replies point by point.

I have to start with the coffee houses. In the UK you will find many of these coffee houses. If we stick to just the Cypriot ones at the moment you will find that although they have the word Cyprus on them they also have one more distinct addition that is either in Turkish or Greek. It is very rare for a GC to go to a TC one and visa versa, but not impossible. They are really gambling dens and are also given names of football clubs and called sporting clubs. This has been the same from day one and mixing of the two communities is very rare. It was the same in the Cyprus of old. Mixed villages generally had separated clubs to go to. The only mixing was done in business and in the work place. Even television was a problem and I don't know how it was split but even at the age of three I can remember my parents getting excited and ready for a evening when a Turkish film was going to be shown. I can even remember one bloody GC advert that was on all the time it seems. A advert for toothpaste called "Kolinos" if I remember rightly. It was always Greek.


The different cultures were quite clearly marked. We had Turkish radio playing in the house. A picture or two of Attaturk. We visited Turkish shops and used Turkish tailors. We played with other Turkish Children and only had Turkish visitors. My whole life was Turkish.

We then were forced out of our country by the events of 1963. We managed to get out near the end of 64 and made our way to the UK. The two rooms we rented from an aunt was full of Turkish things. I really knew nothing else. This despite the fact that my dad grew up in a GC village. He did not not speak Turkish until he was at least nine years old and then only properly after he married my mother. His mum died not being able to speak a word of Turkish. I saw her for what seemed like the first time in 1974 at the age of 13. I cried like a baby at not being able to talk to her properly and seeing she was living in an old fashioned one room mud built hut. It was also the first time that I saw my father, who is not an affectionate man, show some emotion and joy at seeing his mother again.

I can also remember how strange it felt the first time I went to a friends house who was a GC. I was 16 then and the surprise of seeing pictures of Jesus and crosses all over the place was amazing. I am not religious and even then I knew this but it felt awkward to be there. I felt exactly the same way when I visited my Armenians friends house but even more so because he was from Turkey and spoke perfect Turkish...Much better than mine.

So you see...Although my best friend was English I was naturally drawn to people that I related to more. One from Cyprus and the other Turkey. The Armenian friend became my closest friend and I have not had another friend like him and I am so sorry that we fell out and do not see each other anymore. I miss him.

I hope you are enjoying reading this because I want to include the detail I have in order that you understand more about us.

Like you I have tried to be a champion of the fight against racism but have not gone as far as rallies. I have had varied friends, with loyalty being the only condition. I have even got into quite a few arguments about racism and even had to defend a few people.

I have many account of people telling me that it was almost impossible for TCs to get high paying jobs in Cyprus and so the equality and harmony some try to portray on this forum is quite false I am afraid. I asked my eldest sister about this once and she said "I knew I wasn't going to get far in a career but I still loved Cyprus and was very happy". I said that I would not have been happy with those conditions and she said, "yes I have come to realise that and am so glad that we left. You probably would have got yourself killed". I think she was probably right. I cannot take injustice.

Now! I don't want to take too much away from your analysis of Greek words in the TC language and visa versa but I think you will find Greek words in all languages as well as Latin. Having said that I do know what you mean and of course accept that some words will rub off on the other. Some of those words happened through natural causes by which I mean there was no proper word for it in Turkish so the Greek one was adopted. Some words, such as the swear words, happened because of friendly banter and some out of necessity. I think the word you mentioned is the word "P***" in Turkish but the GCs did not leave it there and use "P****gi" instead. I have no idea where it comes from but I bet it is not even Turkish in origin. They cant even leave the word "Dolma" alone which I am sure is Turkish and means "A filling". They use "Dolmades". I can't think of a word that they use from Turkish that they have not changed but I am sure that someone will find one.


So you see the pattern is wide spread all over the world. In Hackney now, there are coffee houses for GCs, TCs, Turks, Kurds and even regions of these countries as well. I am not bothered or surprised that those from Turkey have their own cafes because they feel more at home with the people there. They have their coffee prepared a certain way and their food. They don't have to concentrate so hard on accents. I challenge any TC to tell me that they do not feel more comfortable in a TC cafe as opposed to a GC one. Except for the ones that can speak Greek they are places of stress and I don't want that to sound as ominous as it does. The same goes for some mainland Turkish cafes as well but I think to a lesser degree. Of course you have to take into account the those that are lower market but that again goes for all over the world.


This of course does not account for the entire reason that TCs and GCs are not getting along but I will not repeat all the history that you seem to know so well. Never the less, add that to your equation and the problem becomes massive. Give that a thorough mix and then throw in the fact that the "RoC" has done nothing to promote Turkishness in the South, quite the opposite in fact and you will see where I am coming from. I would be more than happy to be sitting in the comfort of my all TC coffee house called the TRNC/KKTC but conditions and history do not allow that. The Coffee house with the Greek writting on is just as daunting as the ones in the UK that I see every day. I have never ventured in alone and when once I did I felt threatened. It was not a place I was meant to be in. There was no picture of Attaturk and everything was geared for GCs. I could have a coffee and go home. That is what the TCs are doing today. They have a coffee in the south (Shopping and working) and then go home. Noot all thatt dwell there are appreciated but it is still home.

[zan]

By the way...If I have said that I am Turkish first and Cypriot second in those exact words then I did not mean it in that way. I am Turkish Cypriot and that is indivisible.