Cyprus-Forum.com

[Oneness]

Good points however aa)what means equal rights in an EU member country?
bb)Is the possible solution includes other countries , outside Cyprus , to participate in the control of the Island (Territorial waters, air-space etc)?
cc)Can the result be the same as is in Belgium or in Scotald ourdays? -Each side to request separation-?

aa) im thinking of human rights in accordance with UN Reslolutions. If a solution was to include Northern Cyprus in the RoC or as a federation within the EU, then the meaning "rights" must also be in accordance with EU regulations. In shorts, any solution must embrace UN and EU resolutions and regulations concerning an individual's rights.......

bb) Well, I dont have the Annan Plan in front of me at this moment. But what I can say is that Turkey (and in turn, indirectly, the USA) and Britain are included in it. Maybe not officially, the UN was careful not to admit it, but effectively they are included. It is widely believed that the UN, being highly dependant on the USA for political support, basically included what the USA told them to include in the Plan. Both Britain and Turkey were included in the form of various sweeteners such as matters of sovereignty, (of northen Cyprus, in the case of Turkey ; of the British bases at Dhekelia and Akrotiri in the case of Britain) such matters as offshore oil rights etc etc

cc) That's an interesting but a rather academic and hypothetical question which deserves a great deal of time and thought. I am not sure whether Belgium, Scotland or Switzerland would be good models for a Cyprus solution or whether elements can be drawn from all of these. What I can say is that Cyprus has its own individual needs and special circumstances.

[utu]

If the church in Cyprus is taking such an active political role, does this not threaten the nature of democratic government? In any case, I thought that Morphou would have been put under Greek Cypriot administration had the Annan Plan been accepted.

[Nikitas]

Viewpoint,

You ask what is the hidden agenda of the Greek Cypriot side. Well it is my interpretation, extracted from what information and informal contacts I have. It is a purely personal view and it cannot be otherwise since it is a secret agenda.

The Greek Cypriot side in 1974 had a mutliple shock. The savagery of the coup on July 15 was the first ever time this island felt real warfare, with tanks and artillery and it was coming from Greek officers and troops. The second shock was the invasion with even more force, it was the first time in the history of Cyprus that jets and warships were used. Suddenly Cypriots saw what war, as opposed to guerilla warfare, is like.

A bigger shock was the realisation that there was a deal for partition and double union. It added betrayal to injury and it became obvious that even between closely related countries interests override sentiments.

Immediate following the 1974 diasaster there was fast political maturity. There was consensus government and an urgency imposed by the situation to get the community back on its feet. The economic success that followed is a testament to the seriousness with which the Cypriots faced the situation.

The 1977 agreements for a bizonal, bicommunal federation also attest to the political maturity of the south, that solution would have been unimaginable let alone acceptable a few years before.

The hidden agenda for the Greek Cypriots is to preclude any likelihood of 1974 ever happening again. This explains phrases like "survival of hellenism on Cyprus" etc. Also there is the thought in the back of their minds of what if the other side is not sincere about BBF and at some point in the future they split off from the federation? What then? Hence the insistence on prevention of dissolution of the state (since that would mean inevitabl double union) , by insisting on demilitarisation, on a strong state identity so they insist on federation and not confederation, on limiting the influence of either motherland by minimising the number of settlers and troops that remain after a settlement.

It sounds odd, but the south is more afraid of double union than the north. So a lot of its efforts go to ensuring a viable independent state, with problem free operation, resulting from any settlement becaue they do not want 1963 to reoccur. Naturally the insistence is interpreted by the Turkish Cypriot side as an attempt to dominate the island in the future and they reject too strong a federation.

This is my perception of what the hidden Greek Cypriot agenda contains.

[Nikitas]

Utu,

The Morphou referred to by the Archbishop is the Bishop of Morphou, a title in the church. It was the Bishop who made the statements the Archbishop found objectionable.

[Viewpoint]

The GCs had the opportunity in 1960 to build a united country with TCs but blew it big time. 1974 changed everything, we no longer live together and we have grown apart. No TCs wants to go back to how it was as it was very bad for us and therefore nothing short of a 2 state solution will do, joined at the hip or the top doesnt really concern people as long we have our own area to administer and politcal inclusion to stop decisions negatively effecting the TCs. Is that really to much to ask for?

Why did the GCs miss the chance in 1960?

Nikitas was it you that asked about why Tcs did not lend from Gc banks??? I asked a few older TCs and they said the land that was taken as collateral was never returned and thats why TCs feared using GC banks. This is why the first TC cooperative bank was formed in 1939 in Limasol.

[Nikitas]

Viewpoint,

You are thinking along the lines that show you assume what Greek Cypriots plan today. In the past the Enosis dream bulldozed everything, there is no denial of that. But 1974 and the realisation that double union had been on the cards changed it all. It is not possible now to convince the Cypriots to accept the idea that they would be a simple region of another country.

Two states sounds like a nice clean break and theoretically a safe way to live. I fear that in that case neither small state would be able to survive the perceived threat of the other (perceived, it does not have to be real) and that would lead to all kinds of alliances with the two motherlands and others. In the end there will be two vast armed camps on either side of an international frontier. The armies would be under the command of countries with deifferent priorities than ours. There is also the temptation then to accept double union to avoid the perceived threat.

A federation prevents the risk of double union, and satisfies the need for separate administration. It does also preserve a unitary market for the island which is vital for all Cypriots. Kikapu and Kifeas put down the outlines of federal plans in more detail. I must say that both of those plans make more sense than Annan.

[Nikitas]

Viewpoint

The problem of high interest rates and foreclosures was a problem in the 30s for Greek Cypriots too. I do not recall the historic references but the British administration introduced legislation to prevent usurious interest rates and mortgage foreclosures. They also introduced the calculation of interest rates as a lesson in primary schools in the hope that the children would teach their parents the way to calculate interest and avoid being robbed.

Later unde the republic was the boycotting of the banking system which by that time was modern and not like the 30s. There are two views on this, one is that the boycotting was part of the larger campaign, the other is that the banks refused to accept loan applications from Turkish Cypriots. I am still searching for evidence on this.

[Viewpoint]

Viewpoint,

You are thinking along the lines that show you assume what Greek Cypriots plan today. In the past the Enosis dream bulldozed everything, there is no denial of that. But 1974 and the realisation that double union had been on the cards changed it all. It is not possible now to convince the Cypriots to accept the idea that they would be a simple region of another country.

Two states sounds like a nice clean break and theoretically a safe way to live. I fear that in that case neither small state would be able to survive the perceived threat of the other (perceived, it does not have to be real) and that would lead to all kinds of alliances with the two motherlands and others. In the end there will be two vast armed camps on either side of an international frontier. The armies would be under the command of countries with deifferent priorities than ours. There is also the temptation then to accept double union to avoid the perceived threat.

A federation prevents the risk of double union, and satisfies the need for separate administration. It does also preserve a unitary market for the island which is vital for all Cypriots. Kikapu and Kifeas put down the outlines of federal plans in more detail. I must say that both of those plans make more sense than Annan.

The AP has been sucessfully demonized by the GCs side as a need to counter their rejection of it, as I am sure that more than 70% of GCs havent even read it or understand it. Whatever happens with the UN who are totally uninterested in restarting talks for obvious reasons, the basis for any new plan will be the AP as there has been to much work been put into and cannot be scrapped totally. Did you know that many of the chapters were prepared by GC technocrats and put forward for debate?

I agree the enosis dream cost the GC people dearly and it is this that changed the landscape of Cyprus forever, this is the price thay have paid for not grasping the chance to build a united Cyprus where TCs were included.

As I stated above the 2 state solution can be linked by a federal governement with a political balance put forward by Kifeas where TCs can veto any decisions that will effect TCs negatively. I still feel although your ex eoka man and adminsitration althought thy pay lip service to BBF but are dead against BBF as I recall papadop saying I will never take on a sovereign state and have over a component state in a BBF.

His credibility in the EU is zero and has done nothing for a solution in the last 4.5 years and will do nothing if re-elected, obviously GCs are happy with his handing of the situation, so that gives the impression that GCs are not sincere in their call for unification whcih in rality they mean our way or no way. The world will slowly but surely see first hand the GC stance and hopefully things will start to change positively for TCs.

[Viewpoint]

Viewpoint

The problem of high interest rates and foreclosures was a problem in the 30s for Greek Cypriots too. I do not recall the historic references but the British administration introduced legislation to prevent usurious interest rates and mortgage foreclosures. They also introduced the calculation of interest rates as a lesson in primary schools in the hope that the children would teach their parents the way to calculate interest and avoid being robbed.

Later unde the republic was the boycotting of the banking system which by that time was modern and not like the 30s. There are two views on this, one is that the boycotting was part of the larger campaign, the other is that the banks refused to accept loan applications from Turkish Cypriots. I am still searching for evidence on this.

I asked an old TC banker who stated the main reason was was fore closure and under hand tactics to get TC property into GC ownership to counter this in Limasol a TC cooperative was set up to support TCs and if foreclosure was the case then the land woudl stay in TC hands.

[Bananiot]

Of course Morphou would have been returned had we accepted the Plan. Now, Morphou has been lost for ever.

Nikitas wrote

So far no one on this forum or elsewhere has answered these simple questions- if under the new nation foreseen by the Annan plan one component state decided to break away and declare unilateral independence what would be the status of the other component state? How would that affect membership in international organizations and treaty obligations? This is what the USA now realises and has changed its tune about the plan.

The reality

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"Cyprus is an independent state in the form of an indissoluble partnership, with a federal government and two equal constituent states, the Greek Cypriot State and the Turkish Cypriot Sate. Cyprus is a member of the United Nations and has a single international legal personality and sovereignty. The United Cyprus Republic is organised under its Constitution in accordance with the basic principles of rule of law, democracy, representative republican government, political equality, bi-zonality, and the equal status of the constituent states".