Cyprus-Forum.com

[Nikitas]

And while I am at it,

what great genius of greed had the bright idea to SELL the church at Fterihou village to an American woman who turned the church into a private museum cum art gallery and charges an entrance fee? What idiot would do such a thing with a church unless it is to show contempt!

[CopperLine]

Nikitas,
A slight aside, but last time I was in Vienna (which just so happened to be after the Yugoslav wars) I was truck by the number of 'antique' and 'antiquarian' shops that were openly selling masses of various Orthodox iconography. I assumed (perhaps wrongly) that these artefacts had come from churches amongst the various ex-Yugoslav states. Wherever they were from it is hard to believe that they had been entirely legally put on the market. At any rate a number of governments seemed to have connived in or at least turned a blind eye to their plunder.

[Nikitas]

Copperline,

I agree with you about saving what can be saved now. Politicians being what they are they will find ways to block any progress arguing that doing things jointly gives one side recognition or the other side exclusive rights etc.

For the religious sites and artifacts there are two very capable bodies, the church and Evkaf (if I spell it correctly).

For the historic sites there are the academics and archaeologists of both sides.

And here is where the EU could show itself useful, by putting both areas under its protection and financing thereby removing all that political baggage from the equation. But at some point facts cannot be denied, and some persons in positions of influence in the north will have to come to terms with the past histroy of the places they control. It is counterproductive to indulge in too much propaganda, as demostrated by the satirical comments by non partisan journalists who read that inimitable phrase in TRNC brochures: "after the peace operation of 1974 many donkeys in Karpasia found themselves withouth owners".

[Get Real!]

Get Real

It’s a well known fact that the Turkish and TC authorities in the north of Cyprus have engaged in systematic attempts in the last three decades to eliminate Cyprus’ Byzantine (Christian) history with the destruction and neglect of ancient churches and their contents.

A well known fact ? Tell me about it. There is a difference between destruction and neglect. I'm familiar with the stories of destruction but how has this 'neglect' occurred ? How has 'destruction through neglect' occurred ?

Read “neglect and/or destruction” to help you understand the sentence.

When I went to the museum in Morphou/Guzelyurt there was a stunning collection of (mainly) Greek Orthodox iconography. It was not an example of good museum exhibiting for sure. When I went to Salamis for the first time I was astounded by the scale of the place, but really disappointed at the poor state of conservation and no discernible effort at restoration (but restoration is sometimes a controversial heritage policy in any number of countries).

What efforts GR are being made by RoC to support heritage conservation and protection in the north ? Or is heritage conservation subject to embargo as well ?

Heritage conservation is subject to internationally binding treaties such as...

1. The Hague Convention of May 1954, “for the protection of cultural property in the event of an armed conflict”. This Convention is accompanied by an “Execution of the Convention” and a “Protocol” that aims towards its realization.

2. The UNESCO General Conference of November 19th 1964, “on the means prohibiting and preventing the illicit export, import and transfer of ownership of cultural property”.

3. The European Convention “for the protection of archaeological heritage” adopted in London on the 6th of May 1969, by the members of the Council of Europe.

4. The International Convention of Paris, November 1972 concerning “the protection of the world cultural and natural heritage”.

http://www.mcw.gov.cy/mcw/da/da.nsf/DML ... enDocument

Anyone who has any queries regarding the neglect and/or destruction of occupied Cyprus’ cultural heritage can read here…

http://www.mcw.gov.cy/mcw/DA/DA.nsf/All ... enDocument

[Nikitas]

Re the icons-

I am not a religious person, and treat icons as inevitable church "parts". For some people, ironically mostly non orthodox, icons hold a special fascination and hence high value and the value leads to theft.

To counteract this trend and to satisfy the "I must have one" crowd the churches promote the open and legitimate production of copies, often on weathered timber to give that aged look. Some of my friends are iconographers and create these copies. Most of the icons you see in shops are of that type. Inevitably some are from looted churches. The lack of controls on provenance is a fact but getting better.

[CopperLine]

GR

Heritage conservation is subject to internationally binding treaties such as...

But I thought that you insisted that TRNC is not recognised in international law. So how can a legal treaty be binding on an illegal, unrecognised entity ?

Anyway you don't really address the important distinction between destruction on the one hand and neglect on the other. What can be done to support conservation and protection in northern Cyprus ?

[Filitsa]

Get Real

It’s a well known fact that the Turkish and TC authorities in the north of Cyprus have engaged in systematic attempts in the last three decades to eliminate Cyprus’ Byzantine (Christian) history with the destruction and neglect of ancient churches and their contents.

A well known fact ? Tell me about it. There is a difference between destruction and neglect. I'm familiar with the stories of destruction but how has this 'neglect' occurred ? How has 'destruction through neglect' occurred ?

Read “neglect and/or destruction” to help you understand the sentence.

When I went to the museum in Morphou/Guzelyurt there was a stunning collection of (mainly) Greek Orthodox iconography. It was not an example of good museum exhibiting for sure. When I went to Salamis for the first time I was astounded by the scale of the place, but really disappointed at the poor state of conservation and no discernible effort at restoration (but restoration is sometimes a controversial heritage policy in any number of countries).

What efforts GR are being made by RoC to support heritage conservation and protection in the north ? Or is heritage conservation subject to embargo as well ?

Heritage conservation is subject to internationally binding treaties such as...

1. The Hague Convention of May 1954, “for the protection of cultural property in the event of an armed conflict”. This Convention is accompanied by an “Execution of the Convention” and a “Protocol” that aims towards its realization.

2. The UNESCO General Conference of November 19th 1964, “on the means prohibiting and preventing the illicit export, import and transfer of ownership of cultural property”.

3. The European Convention “for the protection of archaeological heritage” adopted in London on the 6th of May 1969, by the members of the Council of Europe.

4. The International Convention of Paris, November 1972 concerning “the protection of the world cultural and natural heritage”.

http://www.mcw.gov.cy/mcw/da/da.nsf/DML ... enDocument

Anyone who has any queries regarding the neglect and/or destruction of occupied Cyprus’ cultural heritage can read here…

http://www.mcw.gov.cy/mcw/DA/DA.nsf/All ... enDocument

Get Real!, you start this thread with TC bashing ...

The Turkish Cypriot Shame File

Meet the fine "Cypriots" who want to share the island of Cyprus with... no not the Greek Cypriots but Germans!

http://www.archaeology.org/online/featu ... index.html

And here I was the other day wondering what the TC community had to offer to Cyprus!


_________________
Purveyor of fine messages since 1571…

... and then you would have us believe that you're sincerely concerned about the looting of antiquities? Disingenuous indeed!

[CopperLine]

MR-from-NG,
Just read your posts on this thread and I strongly agree with what you've said about property and theft.

[Get Real!]

Get Real!, you start this thread with TC bashing ...

... and then you would have us believe that you're sincerely concerned about the looting of antiquities? Disingenuous indeed!

Why don’t you tell us in your own words who/what is responsible for the destruction of occupied Cyprus’ cultural heritage if not those I blame in my posts?

[Get Real!]

GR

Heritage conservation is subject to internationally binding treaties such as...

But I thought that you insisted that TRNC is not recognised in international law. So how can a legal treaty be binding on an illegal, unrecognised entity ?

You started by questioning my allegations as to the perpetrators of the said destruction, you then moved on to what the RoC might be doing about conservation, and now you’ve jumped to doubt that the “TRNC” is subject to international law and therefore not responsible!

Whatever next? At your current rate of jumping from issue to issue I predict that by your tenth response you’ll be asking me about submarines.

Anyway you don't really address the important distinction between destruction on the one hand and neglect on the other. What can be done to support conservation and protection in northern Cyprus ?

Why don't you start a thread on that and find out.