Cyprus-Forum.com

[CopperLine]

Theft of antiquities is another crime to be condemned, without doubt. In the article there was no argument made that Dikmen carried out these thefts because he was a Turkish Cypriot, instead he committed these crimes because he was a criminal supplying an equally unscrupulous international market. So the title of this thread should not be the misleading and wilfully distorting 'the Turkish Cypriot shame file..' but something a bit more honest such as 'antiquities thefts from northern Cyprus' (but that would not produce the rabid sensationalism that GR specialises in).

How odd that GR should post an article published almost 9 years ago. I wonder, again, whether s/he actually read it ?

One of the effect of the isolation of northern Cyprus is that the conservation, protection and promotion of the extraordinarily rich architectural, iconic and religious heritage is severely - probably fatally and irreversibly - damaged. Sure northern Cyprus, TRNC and the Turkish authorities have their own fair share of philistines and cultural vandals, but those who are dedicated to protecting the historical cultural heritage are put in an impossible position. The result of no settlement is that that heritage is slowly and surely being destroyed, much faster now from neglect and embargo than from pillage and theft.

[miltiades]

Copperline wrote:
""""The result of no settlement is that that heritage is slowly and surely being destroyed, much faster now from neglect and embargo than from pillage and theft.""""

Are you seriusly suggesting that the embargo is responsible for the wanton destruction of cultural heritage??
You indeed have a weird and unreasonable way of putting your views forward. Reminds me of some of your previous analogies not least the comparison of the Cuban boat people to the British migration to warmen less stressful locations.
The ultimate responsibility is with Turkey not the Turkish Cypriots , the embargo has nothing what so ever to do with the criminal activities taking place in the "TRNC" , such activities can be ended should Turkey decide to do so.

[Get Real!]

Theft of antiquities is another crime to be condemned, without doubt. In the article there was no argument made that Dikmen carried out these thefts because he was a Turkish Cypriot, instead he committed these crimes because he was a criminal supplying an equally unscrupulous international market. So the title of this thread should not be the misleading and wilfully distorting 'the Turkish Cypriot shame file..' but something a bit more honest such as 'antiquities thefts from northern Cyprus' (but that would not produce the rabid sensationalism that GR specialises in).

How odd that GR should post an article published almost 9 years ago. I wonder, again, whether s/he actually read it ?

One of the effect of the isolation of northern Cyprus is that the conservation, protection and promotion of the extraordinarily rich architectural, iconic and religious heritage is severely - probably fatally and irreversibly - damaged. Sure northern Cyprus, TRNC and the Turkish authorities have their own fair share of philistines and cultural vandals, but those who are dedicated to protecting the historical cultural heritage are put in an impossible position. The result of no settlement is that that heritage is slowly and surely being destroyed, much faster now from neglect and embargo than from pillage and theft.

It’s a well known fact that the Turkish and TC authorities in the north of Cyprus have engaged in systematic attempts in the last three decades to eliminate Cyprus’ Byzantine (Christian) history with the destruction and neglect of ancient churches and their contents. The ease with which this is carried out including the disappearance of many ancient artifacts is testimony of the involvement of these authorities.

The looting and selling of ancient Cypriot treasures is a well known ongoing crime of international proportions; some countries actually have a ban of such treasures coming from Cyprus for obvious reasons.

Aydin Dikmen, is just one of the perpetrators of an entire network of criminals ranging from street thugs who conduct the thefts, locals working in ports of the “TRNC”, and finally “masterminds” the likes of Aydin who purvey the artifacts abroad.

A quick search of “Cyprus” on this website alone yielded no less than 50 articles half of which were related to these thefts…

http://www.archaeology.org/cgi-bin/perl ... s&mode=all

[CopperLine]

Miltiades

Are you seriusly suggesting that the embargo is responsible for the wanton destruction of cultural heritage??

No, Miltiades. Why are you incapable of reading the words that I actually wrote ? That is why I wrote :

One of the effect of the isolation of northern Cyprus is that the conservation, protection and promotion of the extraordinarily rich architectural, iconic and religious heritage is severely - probably fatally and irreversibly - damaged.

[emphasis added]

On the grounds you put forward that

such activities can be ended should Turkey decide to do so

the same logic applies to the Dutch government, the British government, the Greek government, Russian government, Indian, US and however many other governments who do not actually prevent the looting and trafficking of cultural heritage and artefacts.

[CopperLine]

Get Real

It’s a well known fact that the Turkish and TC authorities in the north of Cyprus have engaged in systematic attempts in the last three decades to eliminate Cyprus’ Byzantine (Christian) history with the destruction and neglect of ancient churches and their contents.

A well known fact ? Tell me about it. There is a difference between destruction and neglect. I'm familiar with the stories of destruction but how has this 'neglect' occurred ? How has 'destruction through neglect' occurred ?

When I went to the museum in Morphou/Guzelyurt there was a stunning collection of (mainly) Greek Orthodox iconography. It was not an example of good museum exhibiting for sure. When I went to Salamis for the first time I was astounded by the scale of the place, but really disappointed at the poor state of conservation and no discernible effort at restoration (but restoration is sometimes a controversial heritage policy in any number of countries).

What efforts GR are being made by RoC to support heritage conservation and protection in the north ? Or is heritage conservation subject to embargo as well ?

[Nikitas]

Copperline,

You must take a look at the promotion material put forth by the TRNC. There is an almost Stalinist mania to promote the cultural heritage of norther Cyprus without once using the workd "Greek". So you read about Lapithos and learn tht it used to be called Lambousa, the Shining City, without being told in which language. You read about Salamis, founded by Evagoras but get told that it is a Roman city. The list goes on and on.

Against this background it is hard to believe that the isolation and embargoes had a great effect on the treatment of the cultural heritage in the north. From the major stories breaking in intgernational media, like the Dikman case, to minor ones we see almost daily, northern Cypriot antiquities and religious artifacts bought at the Istnbul market and brought to Athens, it is obvious that what is going on is a free for all. It is for sure carried out for financial gain by some, but there is also valid reason to think that the obliteration of Greek cultural heritage suits the political aims of others.

In my view the removal of traces of Greek habitation of the north goes hand in hand with the colonisation by settlers. The sad aspect is that the Turkish Cypriots do not perceive that it is also their heritage that is being removed and replaced with something alien. The reasoning behind this practice is partly explained by Dentkash in his book on how he countered the notion that Cyprus is a Greek island.

The only bright light in all this is that nothing like it has happened in the south. There are antiquities thieves, but they do not deal in Turkish artifacts or Moslem religious items nor is there any kind of move to obliterate the signs that Turks inhabited the south. Based on this evvidence on can say taht the south has no ethnic complex, something the north must prove too.

[Filitsa]

The Turkish Cypriot Shame File

Meet the fine "Cypriots" who want to share the island of Cyprus with... no not the Greek Cypriots but Germans!

http://www.archaeology.org/online/featu ... index.html

And here I was the other day wondering what the TC community had to offer to Cyprus!

Get Real!, don't you have anything better to do than dig up 10-year-old articles in order to instigate arguments? How pathetic!

[Viewpoint]

Copperline,

You must take a look at the promotion material put forth by the TRNC. There is an almost Stalinist mania to promote the cultural heritage of norther Cyprus without once using the workd "Greek". So you read about Lapithos and learn tht it used to be called Lambousa, the Shining City, without being told in which language. You read about Salamis, founded by Evagoras but get told that it is a Roman city. The list goes on and on.

Against this background it is hard to believe that the isolation and embargoes had a great effect on the treatment of the cultural heritage in the north. From the major stories breaking in intgernational media, like the Dikman case, to minor ones we see almost daily, northern Cypriot antiquities and religious artifacts bought at the Istnbul market and brought to Athens, it is obvious that what is going on is a free for all. It is for sure carried out for financial gain by some, but there is also valid reason to think that the obliteration of Greek cultural heritage suits the political aims of others.

In my view the removal of traces of Greek habitation of the north goes hand in hand with the colonisation by settlers. The sad aspect is that the Turkish Cypriots do not perceive that it is also their heritage that is being removed and replaced with something alien. The reasoning behind this practice is partly explained by Dentkash in his book on how he countered the notion that Cyprus is a Greek island.

The only bright light in all this is that nothing like it has happened in the south. There are antiquities thieves, but they do not deal in Turkish artifacts or Moslem religious items nor is there any kind of move to obliterate the signs that Turks inhabited the south. Based on this evvidence on can say taht the south has no ethnic complex, something the north must prove too.

Do you want a list of mosques/vilaages which have been ransacked and are standing derelict or have been knocked down??? You believe what you want and are a blind man in the desert of GC lies.

[CopperLine]

Nikitas,
Thanks for that. It goes to explain a lot. One of the things that continues to bother me is this question of a total and final settlement overriding partial and 'modest' settlements. If we wait for a total and final settlement before acting to protect or conserve cultural heritage then north Cyprus cultural heritage will have been destroyed through a combination of design and neglect. I agree entirely with you that the loss/destruction in the north is a loss to all Cypriots, including TCs. That loss has not been halted during the years since 1974 and looks unlikely to be halted any time soon. By the time a total and final settlement has been secured there will be nothing left - and the political ambitions of the annihilationists (let's call them that) will have been achieved.

(It is also worth repeating that, contrary to what you've understood, this Dikmen story is not a new story in the media. It is from an article published in 1998).

My argument is, of course that traffickers should be stopped through international measures etc, and that any government policy should be directed at conservation and preservation. But I'm also arguing that - in the interests of all, especially the historical record of the island - support must be given to conservation and preservation NOW to minimise loss and to minimise neglect.

[Nikitas]

Go on Viewpoint- give the list. I have been through Turkish villages like Mala in the Limassol district and the houses are shut up and left alone. In Larnaca's Turkish Cypriot quarter there are houses left empty and not ransacked. I did not see one single Mosque turned into a barn or feed store. In the antique shops in Nicosia you do not find Moslem religious items, and for that matter you do not find them in the Athens market.

The point VP is not neglect, which is understandable. The point is the deliberate obliteration of signs that Greeks founded most villages and towns in the north and lived there for centuries. The cultural heritage is one target, the changing of place names is another, the colonisation by non Cypriots is the third. In the south there has not been a single name of a village changed. Facts are facts.