Cyprus-Forum.com

[Pyrpolizer]

Lets hear from Gcs on how they view our role in a united Cyprus. Lets start with a clean page and see what GCs will put forward on how they feel we shoudl fit into a united Cyprus.

Maybe this will help clear a few preconcieved ideas or reconfirm them..the ball is in your court.

VP, the above inquiry is absurd and ridiculous! It is not what others expect your role to be in Cyprus that matters, but what role you are ready and /or wish or will choose to play! Nevertheless, you know very well that no thinking GC, no GC political party and no GC leadership envision a solution that will establish an environment in which (a) you will have absolutely no effective participation in the decision making of the country, more so when it concerns or will potentially affect your community’s well meant interests, and (b,) your distinct cultural identity will be put at risk of extinction or marginalisation!

Kifeas we have agreed a political structure before so in fact this question was not aimed at you but I was interested to hear from other GCs how they view us in a united Cyprus, what rolls they expect us to play and what type of power sharing they see fit for the other community. I disagree with your comment "It is not what others expect your role to be in Cyprus that matters, but what role you are ready and /or wish or will choose to play!" as the role I see fit for myself may not necessarily be the same as seen by GCs. We get the distinct feeling and this thread confirms it to a certain extent that GCs intend to erase our community rights and apply minority rights, so that they can rule supreme, well to be honest with this attitude I cannot see us uniting, that's why I support partition and feel the TCs will never just be another minority, without safeguards to guarantee representation and veto rights on issues effecting the Tcs negatively Tcs will never accept moving into a system whereby osmosis will occur and we will be absorbed by the 82%.

Bravo VP you are an expert in manipulating everybody. So if you had to chose between a system that would absorb you into the 82% majority, and partition you would chose the later.

How about a FEDERAL SYSTEM THEN? Isn't this what has ALREADY BEEN AGREED? Why do you avoid the issue?

[DT.]

My personal fear on the give and take of protections and power sharing will be TC power used to serve Turkeys influence on the island rather than the TC community or the island. There might be a situation where the TC's (being much closer to their motherlander physically and emotionally) will choose the Turkish good over the island good.

Where is the GC protection that such a case will not happen. We saw the Annan negotiations where Erdogan carried out the talks on his own without even consulting with Talat. His wishlist got satisfied to the fullest and 99% of those changes where not to the benefit of the TC's but to Turkeys benefit directly.

[Get Real!]

My personal fear on the give and take of protections and power sharing will be TC power used to serve Turkeys influence on the island rather than the TC community or the island. There might be a situation where the TC's (being much closer to their motherlander physically and emotionally) will choose the Turkish good over the island good.

You can be sure of that DT and that’s precisely the problem that we can never accept under any circumstances. TC allegiance to Cyprus is in serious question and a constant threat to security and sovereignty of our country.

[Nikitas]

Viewpoint,

I was referring to the 1960 Constitution and the fixed rule that the president must be a Greek Cypriot and the Vice President Turkish Cypriot. How about leaving the Vice President as is and open the Presidency to all Cypriots. Naturally the president will be Greek in such a situation, but the abolition of the ethnic qualification for the highest post, head of state and government, is a symbolic act. If you dont like that solution how about making both candidates, the GC presidential candidate and the TC VP candidate go on the same ticket, as it happens in the USA elections. We would then know in advance which President can work with which Vice President as a team, ensuring smooth government when they are elected. Just trying out ideas, not writing the gospel here!

[Piratis]

Piratis

Our "track record" is WAY better than yours, so you should be the last one talking about that. If you don't like the fact that the great majority of Cypriots are Greek Cypriots and you would feel more comfortable in a Turkish Republic where the majority are Turks and Muslims, then that country is Turkey. The Ottoman rule over our island is over, and so will be your illegal occupation.
Within Cyprus, your minority can have the rights, and be protected, just like every other minority in the world.

Look Piratis can you stop sending us back to Turkey like it or not we are part of this island divided or united we are not going anywhere, this is where we belong, so cut the crap and talk straight. We are not just like any other minority we have community rights as per the 1960s agreements so get over yourself, you still have problems accepting that we are 2 equal communities with a say in what goes on on this island of ours.

I am not sending you back to Turkey. You are the one who wants to live in a Turkish Republic. I am simply telling you that you can not ethnically cleanse the majority of the population from the north part of Cyprus and create a Turkish republic "of northern Cyprus", here. You have to get used to the fact that Cyprus has a GC majority at every corner of it. And if you don't like this fact, and you want to live among a majority of Turks and Muslims, then Turkey is a good choice for you (while performing ethnic cleansing against us is not an option)

Its obvious from our debates that we will never see eye to eye and we are very good examples of why this island will never be reunited, you view us as a minority just by taking our numbers into consideration well wise up man why do we have 2 referendums? we does the world talk to both sides? why is it that my viewpoint carries just as much weight as yours? these are clear indications that there are 2 sides that need to be satisfied before this problem can be solved.

You are a minority by definition. The answers to your "whys" is the same as to why they negotiate with terrorists that keep hostages. You keep our land as hostage, and that is why we negotiate with you. However make no mistake, if the chance to take back our land arises, then Republic of Cyprus would have every right to defend its borders and sovereignty without asking you.

Well, the Latins were rulers of Cyprus at one point yes. So what? And we never had any "partnership agreement".
The rights of each citizen should be the same regardless of his race and ethnic background. We are not living during the Ottoman era that you could keep GCs as second category citizens.

So they to can fight for their rights just like we did, did you try to annihilate them or do they have a 1960 agreement with you guys? the one you feel is not a partnership.

Again I have to remind you we are not talking individual rights here where you are correct everyone should be the same we are talking community rights where we can stop the 82% from taking decisions on our behalf whereby we would be effected more negatively than GCs.

No VP, you tried to annihilate the Latins from Cyprus, and in the most part you succeeded.
Cyprus with its democratically elected government from all Cypriots will take decisions for all Cypriots. Just like it happens in every other democratic country. As I said I would accept every safeguard that TCs are proportionately represented in the government, just to ease any concern that you might have about this.

You are wrong. The EU is a strong supporter of human rights and international law. Maybe the Turks would make compromises in these issues to suit their criminal aims, but we do not, and we will not.

I am not a great supporter of the EU a beauracy isoar where you have 600 meetings just to buy a ballpoint pen, a union which cannot keep its word is not worth anything in my book. Your venom towards Turks continues to dog your posts can you please at least try to hide it like the rest of your community.

Why sho0uld I hide the crimes and illegalities that the Turks want to continue imposing to us? What I ask for is democracy, legality and human rights, and there is nothing to hide.

What should happen is not us to make compromises in democracy, legality and human rights, but the Turks to finally come out of the middle ages and accept these principles, both for Turkey and for Cyprus.

These values have many adaptations and structures look at Serbia and Montenegro, at Switzerland and even the UK, you use your numerical advantage to ensure our demise by trying to erase our community rights which we will never allow you to do, so the sooner you come up with ideas to accommodate both sides concerns the sooner we will move forward.

I don't have a problem with those examples you give. If you want a federal or similar model like those countries thats fine, as long as you give us back the land you stole from us. Then you can administer the villages that you are legally the majority in a Swiss canton way. No problem.

What I am saying is that it can be guaranteed, at all levels, that 18% of the positions will be occupied by TCs.

We can take all the precautions, safegaurts and everything else you want to guarantee that TCs will not be discriminated against and will not be under-represented. When did I ever oppose this?
What I oppose is your demands to descriminate against the rest of Cypriots, and that we should be under-represented.
And we will not "reduce you to a minority". You are just the 18% and therefore you are a minority and you have always been one.

Thank you this comment shows a glimmer of hope which I feel should be the foundation for building trust and understanding towards a unified Cyprus where the majority can show enough compromise to ensure TCs are included in the system rather than excluded like in the past.

We maybe a numerical minority but this does not detract from our weight as a community and the rights that go with that like a veto or a balance in power as put forward by Kifeas.

I never asked from you to be excluded. You are the one who is trying to reduce us from 82% to 50%.

Each TC is equal to each GC. If you are saying that each TC worths as much as 4.5 GCs, then no sorry, we will not accept such racist discriminations, we are not living in the Ottoman era anymore.
You will not be "tottaly ruled by GCs" You will be ruled by Cypriots. If it bothers you that the great majority of Cypriots are GCs, then as I told you before go back to Turkey.

If you don't like what we are saying then you can go live in a Greek state called Greece or stay in your 63% GC state waiting for that swing you long for.

I live in a Cypriot state called Republic of Cyprus and we will continue fighting for liberation against the foreign invadors.

Thats the usual blackmail: "Give me enough money/power etc to satisfy me, and I will give you back what I stole." No, sorry. What you get is what every other Cypriot citizen gets. If thats not enough for you, and you want to gain on the loss of others in order to be satisfied, then know that your criminal actions will have consequences. Your blackmails will have no result.

What are you talking about I said the Turkish army would not be around in a united Cyprus, how is that blackmail?

The blackmail is that the Turkish army is here now, keeping our land as hostage, and trying to force us in this way to accept your demands.
Isn't it true that you want to keep the army and the illegalities until all your demands are satisfied? Isn't this a blackmail?

[Murataga]

Piratis wrote:

I am not sending you back to Turkey. You are the one who wants to live in a Turkish Republic. I am simply telling you that you can not ethnically cleanse the majority of the population from the north part of Cyprus and create a Turkish republic "of northern Cyprus", here. You have to get used to the fact that Cyprus has a GC majority at every corner of it. And if you don't like this fact, and you want to live among a majority of Turks and Muslims, then Turkey is a good choice for you (while performing ethnic cleansing against us is not an option)

Check your history - you are the ones that ethnically cleansed us into the enclaves. We had little hope for getting out until 1974. In 1974 we managed to create a secure zone for ourselves in Cyprus and let you live in Cyprus aswell. You should be thanking us for showing you the mercy that we have after all that you have done to us to hand over Cyprus to Greece. You have tried to terminate our human and political rights along with our existence on this island when you were able. You should be the one getting used to the fact that you will never ever be put in a similar position over us to achieve those crimes again.

[Viewpoint]

Viewpoint,

I was referring to the 1960 Constitution and the fixed rule that the president must be a Greek Cypriot and the Vice President Turkish Cypriot. How about leaving the Vice President as is and open the Presidency to all Cypriots. Naturally the president will be Greek in such a situation, but the abolition of the ethnic qualification for the highest post, head of state and government, is a symbolic act. If you dont like that solution how about making both candidates, the GC presidential candidate and the TC VP candidate go on the same ticket, as it happens in the USA elections. We would then know in advance which President can work with which Vice President as a team, ensuring smooth government when they are elected. Just trying out ideas, not writing the gospel here!

What is going to change,

GC President & TC Vice President 82% against a
TC President & GC Vice President 18%

Cypriots have not matured politically and will always vote along ethnic lines, so TC will nto stand a chance in hell of ever being voted in, we will always have a GC president, this was known even in the 1960s so thats why even in your ocnstitiution today you have the GC president and TC vice president.

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

Our "track record" is WAY better than yours, so you should be the last one talking about that. If you don't like the fact that the great majority of Cypriots are Greek Cypriots and you would feel more comfortable in a Turkish Republic where the majority are Turks and Muslims, then that country is Turkey. The Ottoman rule over our island is over, and so will be your illegal occupation.
Within Cyprus, your minority can have the rights, and be protected, just like every other minority in the world.

Look Piratis can you stop sending us back to Turkey like it or not we are part of this island divided or united we are not going anywhere, this is where we belong, so cut the crap and talk straight. We are not just like any other minority we have community rights as per the 1960s agreements so get over yourself, you still have problems accepting that we are 2 equal communities with a say in what goes on on this island of ours.

I am not sending you back to Turkey. You are the one who wants to live in a Turkish Republic. I am simply telling you that you can not ethnically cleanse the majority of the population from the north part of Cyprus and create a Turkish republic "of northern Cyprus", here. You have to get used to the fact that Cyprus has a GC majority at every corner of it. And if you don't like this fact, and you want to live among a majority of Turks and Muslims, then Turkey is a good choice for you (while performing ethnic cleansing against us is not an option)

Its obvious from our debates that we will never see eye to eye and we are very good examples of why this island will never be reunited, you view us as a minority just by taking our numbers into consideration well wise up man why do we have 2 referendums? we does the world talk to both sides? why is it that my viewpoint carries just as much weight as yours? these are clear indications that there are 2 sides that need to be satisfied before this problem can be solved.

You are a minority by definition. The answers to your "whys" is the same as to why they negotiate with terrorists that keep hostages. You keep our land as hostage, and that is why we negotiate with you. However make no mistake, if the chance to take back our land arises, then Republic of Cyprus would have every right to defend its borders and sovereignty without asking you.

Well, the Latins were rulers of Cyprus at one point yes. So what? And we never had any "partnership agreement".
The rights of each citizen should be the same regardless of his race and ethnic background. We are not living during the Ottoman era that you could keep GCs as second category citizens.

So they to can fight for their rights just like we did, did you try to annihilate them or do they have a 1960 agreement with you guys? the one you feel is not a partnership.

Again I have to remind you we are not talking individual rights here where you are correct everyone should be the same we are talking community rights where we can stop the 82% from taking decisions on our behalf whereby we would be effected more negatively than GCs.

No VP, you tried to annihilate the Latins from Cyprus, and in the most part you succeeded.
Cyprus with its democratically elected government from all Cypriots will take decisions for all Cypriots. Just like it happens in every other democratic country. As I said I would accept every safeguard that TCs are proportionately represented in the government, just to ease any concern that you might have about this.

You are wrong. The EU is a strong supporter of human rights and international law. Maybe the Turks would make compromises in these issues to suit their criminal aims, but we do not, and we will not.

I am not a great supporter of the EU a beauracy isoar where you have 600 meetings just to buy a ballpoint pen, a union which cannot keep its word is not worth anything in my book. Your venom towards Turks continues to dog your posts can you please at least try to hide it like the rest of your community.

Why sho0uld I hide the crimes and illegalities that the Turks want to continue imposing to us? What I ask for is democracy, legality and human rights, and there is nothing to hide.

What should happen is not us to make compromises in democracy, legality and human rights, but the Turks to finally come out of the middle ages and accept these principles, both for Turkey and for Cyprus.

These values have many adaptations and structures look at Serbia and Montenegro, at Switzerland and even the UK, you use your numerical advantage to ensure our demise by trying to erase our community rights which we will never allow you to do, so the sooner you come up with ideas to accommodate both sides concerns the sooner we will move forward.

I don't have a problem with those examples you give. If you want a federal or similar model like those countries thats fine, as long as you give us back the land you stole from us. Then you can administer the villages that you are legally the majority in a Swiss canton way. No problem.

What I am saying is that it can be guaranteed, at all levels, that 18% of the positions will be occupied by TCs.

We can take all the precautions, safegaurts and everything else you want to guarantee that TCs will not be discriminated against and will not be under-represented. When did I ever oppose this?
What I oppose is your demands to descriminate against the rest of Cypriots, and that we should be under-represented.
And we will not "reduce you to a minority". You are just the 18% and therefore you are a minority and you have always been one.

Thank you this comment shows a glimmer of hope which I feel should be the foundation for building trust and understanding towards a unified Cyprus where the majority can show enough compromise to ensure TCs are included in the system rather than excluded like in the past.

We maybe a numerical minority but this does not detract from our weight as a community and the rights that go with that like a veto or a balance in power as put forward by Kifeas.

I never asked from you to be excluded. You are the one who is trying to reduce us from 82% to 50%.

Each TC is equal to each GC. If you are saying that each TC worths as much as 4.5 GCs, then no sorry, we will not accept such racist discriminations, we are not living in the Ottoman era anymore.
You will not be "tottaly ruled by GCs" You will be ruled by Cypriots. If it bothers you that the great majority of Cypriots are GCs, then as I told you before go back to Turkey.

If you don't like what we are saying then you can go live in a Greek state called Greece or stay in your 63% GC state waiting for that swing you long for.

I live in a Cypriot state called Republic of Cyprus and we will continue fighting for liberation against the foreign invadors.

Thats the usual blackmail: "Give me enough money/power etc to satisfy me, and I will give you back what I stole." No, sorry. What you get is what every other Cypriot citizen gets. If thats not enough for you, and you want to gain on the loss of others in order to be satisfied, then know that your criminal actions will have consequences. Your blackmails will have no result.

What are you talking about I said the Turkish army would not be around in a united Cyprus, how is that blackmail?

The blackmail is that the Turkish army is here now, keeping our land as hostage, and trying to force us in this way to accept your demands.
Isn't it true that you want to keep the army and the illegalities until all your demands are satisfied? Isn't this a blackmail?

Piratis we are covering old ground again, lets just say the chasm between us is just to wide to bridge, you are trying to use your numerical advantage to push me into a trap where camaflougaged under democracy which when administration by Gcs as we will not get a look in (before you say democracy is the same everywhere thats bullsit and we both know it) will be hell on earht for us. So Im sorry we will not fall into this trap where we are like the ethnic minorities in the UK, where those minorities have accepted moving and living underthe laws of that land. I am not like them I have been here 400 years and therefore am as indigenous as you and there demand that my community also has a say in the running of this country and safeguards are in place to stop you using your numerical strangth to force us to do anything against our will.

Taking all the above into consider and your stubborn unmovable stand point you have no alternative left but to wait for that swing you long for and get on with your life in your part of the island. If you ever do get lucky and obtain the power to get what you want pleas epromise to complete what you tried to do in 1963 and 1974 andblow all the TCs to kingdom come as only then will you really get what you want.

[Piratis]

Viewpoint,

I was referring to the 1960 Constitution and the fixed rule that the president must be a Greek Cypriot and the Vice President Turkish Cypriot. How about leaving the Vice President as is and open the Presidency to all Cypriots. Naturally the president will be Greek in such a situation, but the abolition of the ethnic qualification for the highest post, head of state and government, is a symbolic act. If you dont like that solution how about making both candidates, the GC presidential candidate and the TC VP candidate go on the same ticket, as it happens in the USA elections. We would then know in advance which President can work with which Vice President as a team, ensuring smooth government when they are elected. Just trying out ideas, not writing the gospel here!

What is going to change,

GC President & TC Vice President 82% against a
TC President & GC Vice President 18%

Cypriots have not matured politically and will always vote along ethnic lines, so TC will nto stand a chance in hell of ever being voted in, we will always have a GC president, this was known even in the 1960s so thats why even in your ocnstitiution today you have the GC president and TC vice president.

You knew that the great majority of Cypriots are Greek right from when you first came here. If you didn't like this fact you shouldn't have come to Cyprus in the first place. Of course you came with the aim to oppress us and undemocratically rule over us, and thats what you did for 300 years.

So now what do you want? To oppress our democratic and human rights even more because you don't like the fact that you are a minority in Cyprus?

You can have all your rights, and your proportional representation. Beyond that each TC should have the right to stand in an election for the presidency, but you don't have the right to take it by force. So if you want a TC to be a president that should be one that will be voted by the majority of the Cypriot people and become president in a democratic way.

[Piratis]

Piratis we are covering old ground again, lets just say the chasm between us is just to wide to bridge, you are trying to use your numerical advantage to push me into a trap where camaflougaged under democracy which when administration by Gcs as we will not get a look in (before you say democracy is the same everywhere thats bullsit and we both know it) will be hell on earht for us. So Im sorry we will not fall into this trap where we are like the ethnic minorities in the UK, where those minorities have accepted moving and living underthe laws of that land. I am not like them I have been here 400 years and therefore am as indigenous as you and there demand that my community also has a say in the running of this country and safeguards are in place to stop you using your numerical strangth to force us to do anything against our will.

Taking all the above into consider and your stubborn unmovable stand point you have no alternative left but to wait for that swing you long for and get on with your life in your part of the island. If you ever do get lucky and obtain the power to get what you want pleas epromise to complete what you tried to do in 1963 and 1974 andblow all the TCs to kingdom come as only then will you really get what you want.

This is what the Whites in South Africa used to say also. "We have been here for 100s of years, we will not be just equal citizens with these blacks"

You have been in Cyprus for 400 years and we have been for 3500 years. So there is absolutely nothing to justify your demand that each one of you should count more than each one of us.

So go on with your crimes and illegalities against us, just like you have done for almost the whole time since you set your foot on our island. But know that sooner or later our island will be liberated. you made the choice not to be an equal Cypriot citizen but to associate yourselves with the foreign invaders who occupy our land. Just remember this choice of yours.