Cyprus-Forum.com

[free_cyprus]

Every Cypriot citizen should be equal without racist discriminations. Beyond that each Cypriot's role will depend on what he or she will do, and the limit is only the law and the each persons capabilities.

If TCs do not accept the role of equal Cypriot citizens, but they want to be the "super citizens" who are above all others just because they are Turkish, then obviously the rest of Cypriots will not accept it such racist discriminations.

here we go again with the turkish and greek stuff again fecking whay dont we just change the language in cyprus and talk chinese that will solve the problem then we can just say we are cypriots who speak chinese

[Pyrpolizer]

Peasants they were like us. Just paying less taxes for praying differently.

[Pyrpolizer]

Presumably the EXPECTED solution by EVERYONE will be FEDERAL.

I don't understand all this stupid discussions going on in circles, about having a Unitary state that the TCs been the 18% will supposely be discriminated against etc etc.

So VP how do you envision the role of the TCs in this FEDERAL UNITED CYPRUS?

Discrimination comes in many forms my friend. Our veto gives us protection against many of them.

Fine Zan. So in the Federal system you envision Veto is essensial. Remember both sides can have Veto in a Federal system.Let's continue:

What else?

[Kifeas]

Peasants they were like us. Just paying less taxes for praying differently.

Maybe just because VP was a member of the Sultan's "ich-oglans" (or was it of his "hanim-harem?") s/he thinks that s/he was also the co-owner of his “possessions!”

[zan]

Zan,

If you mean the Turkish Cypriot vote being the decider, then it does give politically more power to the Turkish Cypriot community but not in the rigid terms of guarantees contained in the 1960 constitution.

If you mean the EU aquis, then it does offer more than the 1960 constitution. The EU legal order does not replace the consitution, it adds to it more closely defined and legally tested rights. To date i have not come across any part of the EU aquis which can be seen as detrimental to any communal or individual rights.

The TC vote would not be a decider as you put it Nikitas because that implies that we should always side with GC opinion and when we don't as going against it. The truth is that we would vote for what is best for us. This does not mean , however, that the vote is used to sabotage the islands best interests. Why the hell would we do that???


Also in many cases, put in your terms, the GC vote would be the decider. We are capable of legislation as well you know.

[Nikitas]

Zan there was no intention to infer that the system would be one where the TCs have no status as a community. It was a response to a question put by VP. Staying on that hypothetical note, if the political parties were trying to get that 18 per cent of the vote they would take the interests of that portion of the population very seriously, in all their movers including their charter and rules of operation. On the other hand it might, stress might, lead the Turkish Cypriot community to always act as an ethnic community and not as free citizens with individual political will and that might not be such a good thing.

The additions made by EU entry to the 1960 constitution are a different story. Although some parts, like the eligibility of all EU citizens to apply for civil service jobs in any nation member of the EU might affect the 70-30 apportionment of civil service jobs. There may also be complications where the proportions of 70-30 might not be met by qualified people from each community, ie, there not enough qualified Greek Cypriots to get 70 per cent of positions. It is not clear what EU rules would mandate in such situations. Overall the EU rules improve the constitution since they are constantly being improved in favor of the individual and his rights and go much further than the 1960 constitution. To get back to the basic question, the role of the Turkish Cypriot community is the role of any citizen section in a free country and personally I would not have any objection to Turkish Cypriots occupying any public office including the presidency. In fact one of my objections to the 1960 constitution was the limitation of the highest elected office by ethnic criteria. But that is another story.

[Viewpoint]

Lets hear from Gcs on how they view our role in a united Cyprus. Lets start with a clean page and see what GCs will put forward on how they feel we shoudl fit into a united Cyprus.

Maybe this will help clear a few preconcieved ideas or reconfirm them..the ball is in your court.

VP, the above inquiry is absurd and ridiculous! It is not what others expect your role to be in Cyprus that matters, but what role you are ready and /or wish or will choose to play! Nevertheless, you know very well that no thinking GC, no GC political party and no GC leadership envision a solution that will establish an environment in which (a) you will have absolutely no effective participation in the decision making of the country, more so when it concerns or will potentially affect your community’s well meant interests, and (b,) your distinct cultural identity will be put at risk of extinction or marginalisation!

Kifeas we have agreed a political structure before so in fact this question was not aimed at you but I was interested to hear from other GCs how they view us in a united Cyprus, what rolls they expect us to play and what type of power sharing they see fit for the other community. I disagree with your comment "It is not what others expect your role to be in Cyprus that matters, but what role you are ready and /or wish or will choose to play!" as the role I see fit for myself may not necessarily be the same as seen by GCs. We get the distinct feeling and this thread confirms it to a certain extent that GCs intend to erase our community rights and apply minority rights, so that they can rule supreme, well to be honest with this attitude I cannot see us uniting, that's why I support partition and feel the TCs will never just be another minority, without safeguards to guarantee representation and veto rights on issues effecting the Tcs negatively Tcs will never accept moving into a system whereby osmosis will occur and we will be absorbed by the 82%.

[Viewpoint]

Zan there was no intention to infer that the system would be one where the TCs have no status as a community. It was a response to a question put by VP. Staying on that hypothetical note, if the political parties were trying to get that 18 per cent of the vote they would take the interests of that portion of the population very seriously, in all their movers including their charter and rules of operation. On the other hand it might, stress might, lead the Turkish Cypriot community to always act as an ethnic community and not as free citizens with individual political will and that might not be such a good thing.

The additions made by EU entry to the 1960 constitution are a different story. Although some parts, like the eligibility of all EU citizens to apply for civil service jobs in any nation member of the EU might affect the 70-30 apportionment of civil service jobs. There may also be complications where the proportions of 70-30 might not be met by qualified people from each community, ie, there not enough qualified Greek Cypriots to get 70 per cent of positions. It is not clear what EU rules would mandate in such situations. Overall the EU rules improve the constitution since they are constantly being improved in favor of the individual and his rights and go much further than the 1960 constitution. To get back to the basic question, the role of the Turkish Cypriot community is the role of any citizen section in a free country and personally I would not have any objection to Turkish Cypriots occupying any public office including the presidency. In fact one of my objections to the 1960 constitution was the limitation of the highest elected office by ethnic criteria. But that is another story.

Nikitas the likelihood of a TC being voted as president is next to non exsistent as 82% are GCs who have an axe to grind against TCs for 1974, the confirmation of this is the fact that people like Piratis have confirmed that TCs suffered in 1963 as payback for what the Ottomans did, hubdreds of years ago can you imagine what they woudl do to us for what happened only 33 years ago?

The political maturity to vote for the best man for job is pure utopian ideology for GCs as they would rather see an GC idiot in office than vote for a competent TC.

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

Our "track record" is WAY better than yours, so you should be the last one talking about that. If you don't like the fact that the great majority of Cypriots are Greek Cypriots and you would feel more comfortable in a Turkish Republic where the majority are Turks and Muslims, then that country is Turkey. The Ottoman rule over our island is over, and so will be your illegal occupation.
Within Cyprus, your minority can have the rights, and be protected, just like every other minority in the world.

Look Piratis can you stop sending us back to Turkey like it or not we are part of this island divided or united we are not going anywhere, this is where we belong, so cut the crap and talk straight. We are not just like any other minority we have community rights as per the 1960s agreements so get over yourself, you still have problems accepting that we are 2 equal communities with a say in what goes on on this island of ours.
Its obvious from our debates that we will never see eye to eye and we are very good examples of why this island will never be reunited, you view us as a minority just by taking our numbers into consideration well wise up man why do we have 2 referendums? we does the world talk to both sides? why is it that my viewpoint carries just as much weight as yours? these are clear indications that there are 2 sides that need to be satisfied before this problem can be solved.

Well, the Latins were rulers of Cyprus at one point yes. So what? And we never had any "partnership agreement".
The rights of each citizen should be the same regardless of his race and ethnic background. We are not living during the Ottoman era that you could keep GCs as second category citizens.

So they to can fight for their rights just like we did, did you try to annihilate them or do they have a 1960 agreement with you guys? the one you feel is not a partnership.

Again I have to remind you we are not talking individual rights here where you are correct everyone should be the same we are talking community rights where we can stop the 82% from taking decisions on our behalf whereby we would be effected more negatively than GCs.

You are wrong. The EU is a strong supporter of human rights and international law. Maybe the Turks would make compromises in these issues to suit their criminal aims, but we do not, and we will not.

I am not a great supporter of the EU a beauracy isoar where you have 600 meetings just to buy a ballpoint pen, a union which cannot keep its word is not worth anything in my book. Your venom towards Turks continues to dog your posts can you please at least try to hide it like the rest of your community.

What should happen is not us to make compromises in democracy, legality and human rights, but the Turks to finally come out of the middle ages and accept these principles, both for Turkey and for Cyprus.

These values have many adaptations and structures look at Serbia and Montenegro, at Switzerland and even the UK, you use your numerical advantage to ensure our demise by trying to erase our community rights which we will never allow you to do, so the sooner you come up with ideas to accommodate both sides concerns the sooner we will move forward.

What I am saying is that it can be guaranteed, at all levels, that 18% of the positions will be occupied by TCs.

We can take all the precautions, safegaurts and everything else you want to guarantee that TCs will not be discriminated against and will not be under-represented. When did I ever oppose this?
What I oppose is your demands to descriminate against the rest of Cypriots, and that we should be under-represented.
And we will not "reduce you to a minority". You are just the 18% and therefore you are a minority and you have always been one.

Thank you this comment shows a glimmer of hope which I feel should be the foundation for building trust and understanding towards a unified Cyprus where the majority can show enough compromise to ensure TCs are included in the system rather than excluded like in the past.

We maybe a numerical minority but this does not detract from our weight as a community and the rights that go with that like a veto or a balance in power as put forward by Kifeas.

Each TC is equal to each GC. If you are saying that each TC worths as much as 4.5 GCs, then no sorry, we will not accept such racist discriminations, we are not living in the Ottoman era anymore.
You will not be "tottaly ruled by GCs" You will be ruled by Cypriots. If it bothers you that the great majority of Cypriots are GCs, then as I told you before go back to Turkey.

If you don't like what we are saying then you can go live in a Greek state called Greece or stay in your 63% GC state waiting for that swing you long for.

Thats the usual blackmail: "Give me enough money/power etc to satisfy me, and I will give you back what I stole." No, sorry. What you get is what every other Cypriot citizen gets. If thats not enough for you, and you want to gain on the loss of others in order to be satisfied, then know that your criminal actions will have consequences. Your blackmails will have no result.

What are you talking about I said the Turkish army would not be around in a united Cyprus, how is that blackmail?

[denizaksulu]

Piratis , its people like yourselves who are fomenting this hatred. Always stirring. Common sense dictates that we sit down and'talk'. While you are spreading your venom nothing can be negotiated, which in the end will culminate in the removal of 'foreign' armies.

Deniz, hate is a natural feeling. Some people are more resistant to this feeling and others are less. The hate that exists among some Greek Cypriots is due to what is hapening to their own lives today.

A BIG bravo to Piratis for having the patience to even meticulously explain the word "hate" in a peaceful and civilized manner. You're a credit to the forum.

@Deniz
You dissapoint me! You don't complain of worthless clowns like Eric yet you have a constant gripe against Piratis who goes out of his way for everyone who cares to debate in a civilised manner.

Sorry for your groundless disappointment GR. Obviously you have missed the post I sent to eric-dayi regarding his 'very' colorful language.
Regarding Piratis, its his delivery and not his patriotism I have issues with. Otherwise I have no disagreements with him. If he does not know that yet, I have wasted my 6 months on this forum. AND you ought to know better.

What's wrong with his delivery? I don't see any foul language or anything else provocative... in fact I don't ever recall him being rude to anyone!

And what's all this about wasting 6 months here? Are you on a contract?

You are correct, Piratis has always been polite and hardly rude, but not beyond criticism from my point of view. And whats with the interrogatiion GR. Bored?