The Best Cyprus Community

Skip to content


democracy in greece

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby alexISS » Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:51 am

zan wrote:What exactly are you guys complaining about.....You constantly boast about democracy and this is part of the system....How these people have been treated and why they are the way they are does not come into the equation I suppose....Trying to knock out the Turkishness from everything they do has got nothing to do with it I suppose.. :roll:

There are similar rallies in the UK and even the "RoC" i believe against foreigners.....How do you deal with them....People doing all they can to get votes and you are surprised.... :roll: :roll: :roll:


How is those people's ethnicity denied? Are they not allowed to speak or be taught their own language? Are they prosecuted if they declare their Turkishness? Are their religious rights limited? Are their properties confiscated? NO. But guess which country has successfully rid itself of minorities by practicing all the above
User avatar
alexISS
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor
 
Posts: 1543
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Athens, Greece

Postby zan » Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:00 am

alexISS wrote:
zan wrote:What exactly are you guys complaining about.....You constantly boast about democracy and this is part of the system....How these people have been treated and why they are the way they are does not come into the equation I suppose....Trying to knock out the Turkishness from everything they do has got nothing to do with it I suppose.. :roll:

There are similar rallies in the UK and even the "RoC" i believe against foreigners.....How do you deal with them....People doing all they can to get votes and you are surprised.... :roll: :roll: :roll:


How is those people's ethnicity denied? Are they not allowed to speak or be taught their own language? Are they prosecuted if they declare their Turkishness? Are their religious rights limited? Are their properties confiscated? NO. But guess which country has successfully rid itself of minorities by practicing all the above



They are being put under pressure and well you know it alexISS. The Turkish in everything they do to advertise themselves is being threatened. People that are content do not scream. I am not going to get into the great GC subterfuge of diverting the argument from TCs to Turkey.....Or Greece for that matter....Try reading the gripes these people have with Greece and then defend what Greece says about it...Don't just bounce everything on to Turkey....Glass houses and all that....
User avatar
zan
Leading Contributor
Leading Contributor
 
Posts: 16213
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 8:55 pm

Postby Nikitas » Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:01 am

Zan,

I do not quite get your post. Since the return to civilian government in 1974 the Turks in northern Greece have exactly the same political rights as the rest of the population. During the dictatorship they were in fact better off since no Turk was ever arrested for political reasosn, as were thousands of others.

It is interesting that even though there have been Turkish candidates in every single election since 1974, the majority of the votes are given to Greek candidates. Obviously the members of the minority feel they are better represented by the Greek candidates rather than the Turks. Over the years there have been Turkish candidates elected either as independents or members of the mainstream parties. Politicking naturally leads people to say all kinds of things, stopping short of insults one would think.

Knocking turkishness out of them is a non starter. Their education is along mainland Turkish lines, with teachers educated in Turkey and books imported from there. There is no compulsory greek anything other than language classes that come in useful for those that want to go on to Greek university, and many do by the way.

Compare this situation with the course and life quality of Greeks in Istanbul and other places. Or just compare the population numbers and the results will tell you a lot. The two minoritiesw were about equal in the 40s. Now we have 100 plus thousand in Greece and less than 2000 in Turkey. Not to mention the property laws etc that reminds us of more recent events.
Nikitas
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 7420
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 2:49 pm

Postby alexISS » Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:13 am

zan wrote:They are being put under pressure and well you know it alexISS. The Turkish in everything they do to advertise themselves is being threatened. People that are content do not scream. I am not going to get into the great GC subterfuge of diverting the argument from TCs to Turkey.....Or Greece for that matter....Try reading the gripes these people have with Greece and then defend what Greece says about it...Don't just bounce everything on to Turkey....Glass houses and all that....


Zan, is it possible that you don't exactly know what this "pressure" you talk about is? There are two "issues" regarding the Turkish (and not the whole muslim) minority of Thrace: Using the adjective "Turkish" in the names of ORGANIZATIONS and the appointing of Muftis. The first restriction has been placed because of the continuing efforts of some members of the Turkish minority to "absorb" the other two muslim minorities into their own in order to increase their numbers, and forcibly signing them up in "Turkish" organizations is the most common way of doing this. As for the muftis, the same minority members demand that the muftis are elected from the people and not appointed by the government. The problem is that the muftis have judicial powers and judges simply cannot be "picked" by the people. Muftis are appointed by the government in Turkey too. And yet, those same "special" minority members organize illegal elections and appoint their own pseudo-muftis, who are always extremists serving the same interests the ones who appoint them do.
User avatar
alexISS
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor
 
Posts: 1543
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Athens, Greece

Postby Nikitas » Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:18 am

CLose down the Turkish Consulate in Komotini and the Greek Consulate in Smyrni. End of story.
Nikitas
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 7420
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 2:49 pm

Postby alexISS » Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:24 am

Nikitas wrote:CLose down the Turkish Consulate in Komotini and the Greek Consulate in Smyrni. End of story.


I'm afraid that if the Turkish Consulate is closed the Ecumenical Patriarchate will follow
User avatar
alexISS
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor
 
Posts: 1543
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Athens, Greece

Postby Nikitas » Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:39 am

The consulate is in exchange for the consulate of Smyrni. Greece has no use for its consulates in Turkey, there being no Greeks left in Turkey (practically none). It is not involved with the Patriarchate.

And you know what, the whole Patriarchate thing is overblown. We should have withdrawn it ourselves. Let the Turks rejoice over their achievement of a monocultural and intolerant society. They would be the first to protest such a move, believe me. They need to be in control, and once you blow off that control game then they wake up.
Nikitas
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 7420
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 2:49 pm

Postby alexISS » Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:47 am

Nikitas wrote:The consulate is in exchange for the consulate of Smyrni. Greece has no use for its consulates in Turkey, there being no Greeks left in Turkey (practically none). It is not involved with the Patriarchate.

If, even after an agreement between the two countries, the consulates were closed, Turkey would have the perfect excuse to shut the Patriachate down because, according to them, the Patriarch is the spiritual leader of the Greek minority which Greece herself recognises as extinct by asking for the closure of the Greek consulate.


Nikitas wrote:And you know what, the whole Patriarchate thing is overblown. We should have withdrawn it ourselves. Let the Turks rejoice over their achievement of a monocultural and intolerant society. They would be the first to protest such a move, believe me. They need to be in control, and once you blow off that control game then they wake up.

I know that no major Greek interests are served by the Patriarchate, but the thought that its termination will be the end of a 1600 years old institution is enough of a reason for Greece to fight for its preservance. Besides, it IS the head of the world's orthodox churches, Turkey should be aware of the prestige of hosting it, but anything Greek has to go so...
User avatar
alexISS
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor
 
Posts: 1543
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Athens, Greece

Postby zan » Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:14 pm

The Turks and Pomaks
By Hugh Poulton, "The Balkans, Minorities and Governments in Conflict" (1993), Minority Rights Publication



Assessing the number of Turks and other minorities in Greece is problematic. The census of 1928 recorded 191,254 Turks while the 1951 census recorded 179,895 Turks of whom virtually all were either Muslim by religion, 92,219, or Orthodox, 86,838. While some live on the Greek islands neighbouring Turkey, most live in Western Thrace. The Pomaks, Muslim Slavs, or a small number of Muslim Greeks, tend to live also in Western Thrace in villages in the southern Rhodope and due to the official reticence to give figures for ethnic minorities, only for religious ones, it is hard to separate them from the Turks; however, the villages near the Bulgarian border in all three provinces of Western Thrace are predominantly Pomak with the exception of some like Mikron Dereion which have a mixed population of ethnic Turks, Pomaks and Greek Orthodox, or others which have a sedentary Muslim Gypsy population. Many Pomaks also live in Komotini and Xantini and some also live in Dhidhimotikhon.

Official Greek sources tend to claim that the Turks are Pomaks or Muslim Greeks while, conversely the Turks claim the Pomaks as Turks. Estimates from the Information Office at the Greek Embassy in London based on the 1981 census figures give a total of 110,000 people belonging to religious minorities of whom some 60,000 are Turkish-speaking Muslims; 30,000 Pomaks; and 20,000 Athingani (descendants of Christian heretics expelled from Asia Minor during Byzantine rule) or Roma Gypsies. However, Turkish Muslim sources from Western Thrace claim a total of 100,000 to 120,000 Turkish-speaking Muslims in Western Thrace and most observers estimate between 100,000 and 120,000 Muslims out of a total population for Western Thrace of some 360,000 recorded in the census of 1971. Of the other minorities there are small populations of Gagauz, Christian Turkish-speaking people, for example around the city of Alexandroupolis, and Sarakatsani, Greek speaking transhumants, especially in the village of Palladion. Fieldwork by F. De Jong in 1979, to whom much of the above is indebted, notes that there are no longer any Circassians in Western Thrace.

Turkey is Greece's traditional enemy, despite being a NATO pact partner, and, similarly to Bulgaria, Greece fears Turkish expansion, especially after the example of Cyprus and huge billboards featuring a bleeding partitioned Cyprus with appropriate captions, were openly displayed in Thrace in 1987. Much of Western Thrace is restricted area due to reasons of national security. These areas are the border areas with Bulgaria where many Turks and Pomaks live and in these militarized areas large portions of land has been expropriated from Pomaks and Turks. The inhabitants of these areas are severely restricted in their freedom of movement to 30kms radius of their residence. Decree 1366/1938 which forbids foreign nationals to buy land near border areas is still operational and it is claimed that this decree is used against ethnic Turks and Pomaks even though they are Greek citizens.

In the exchange of populations following the Greco-Turkish war of 1920-22 some 60,000 Greek refugees from Asia Minor were allowed, in contravention of the Treaty of Lausanne, to settle in Western Thrace, and under steady administrative and economic pressure from the Greek authorities a gradual migration of Muslims to Turkey ensued. This is particularly noticeable in the previously Muslim province of Ebros where the population now is Greek Orthodox. World War II and the civil war saw a rise in the number of such emigres and some 20,000 left for Turkey in the period 1939-51 with emigration continuing to present day.

The deterioration of relations with Turkey over the developing situation in Cyprus saw a corresponding deterioration of the situation of the Turkish minority in Western Thrace with increased pressure to induce emigration. At the same time the Turkish government began to raise the issue of the issue of the minority as a counterpoise to Greek claims for uniting Cyprus with Greece. (Successive Greek governments have tended to see any complaints from Turks in Western Thrace as being orchestrated by Turkey and have also pointed to the unhappy situation of the 100,000 or so Greeks allowed, under the Treaty of Lausanne, to remain in Istanbul. These Greeks have suffered severe harassment and their numbers have declined drastically, as a result, to under 10,000 by 1974, and their position seems serious in extreme).

Under the military dictatorship of 1967-74 the situation worsened. Members of the Turkish minority community boards, elected under provision of Decree 2345/1920, were dismissed and replaced by non- elected people, appointed by government agencies, prepared to act contrary to the interests of the Muslim community. Examples are the appointment, without any qualifications, of a Gypsy Muslim, Ahmet Damatoglu, previously and imam, as Mufti of Dhidhimotikon (Dimotoka) in 1973, and a non-Muslim as chairman of the council for the administration of religious organizations in Xanthi in 1967. In this period Greeks, including many Sarakatsani - a Greek-speaking transhumant people akin to the Vlahs - were given financial inducement to move into Western Thrace to dilute the Muslim Turkish speaking population.

Despite the return of democracy in 1974 the trend continued aided by Greek reaction to the Turkish invasion of Cyprus. There has been no return to the former democratic practices as stipulated in Decree 2345/1920 and when the Mufti of Komotini died on 2 July 1985 he was replaced by a government appointee. When the new Mufti resigned almost immediately due to community protests he was replaced six months later by another appointee without consultation. From 1977 all the place names in Komotini were changed from Turkish forms to Greek forms and henceforth it was forbidden to use the old names for official purposes, apparently on pain of fine or even imprisonment. Mention of the Turkish name in parenthesis after the Greek name is also forbidden.

Over a long period there have been growing complaints by Muslims, Turks and Pomaks, that: they, unlike Greek Orthodox Christians, cannot buy real estate, except for a few select people who cooperate with the authorities, neither can they negotiate loans or credits; threat building construction for Turkish houses has been withheld for many years resulting in the Turks being forced to live in backward conditions (easily observable by a casual visitor), neither is permission to build or restore mosques forthcoming; Muslims have been particularly affected by expropriation of land for public use without adequate compensation, and the re-allocation of land in Western Thrace which began in 1967 has resulted in their receiving inferior land in exchange; Muslims are virtually excluded from the state bureaucracy and hindered in business matters by difficulties in obtaining business and driving licenses and even subject to punitive levies; despite constitutional guarantees, Turks who leave Greece, even for a temporary period, have been denied re-entry under Article 19 of the Greek Nationality Law which states:

"A person who is of foreign origin leaving Greek territories without the intention of returning may be deprived of Greek citizenship", and obtaining normal five-year passports is difficult for many Turks. This last point is illustrated by a number of cases like the one reported in the Athens newspaper Rizospastis on 19 May 1986 that "two Muslim origin Greek citizens from a village near Komotini were refused re-entry and deported after having visited their son who was studying in Istanbul. Additionally it is alleged that the authorities are attempting to disperse the minority by moving unemployed Turks and Pomaks to other areas, where once registered they are unable to return to Western Thrace, and are pressured under pain of dismissal to change their names to Greek ones.


Education


In the vital field of education the Greek authorities have steadily increased teaching in Greek at the expense of Turkish. From the 1960s onwards religious teachers from the Arab world have progressively been reduced while the employment of teachers from Turkey to Turkish schools in Western Thrace has been stopped. Since 1968 only graduates from a special academy in Thessaloniki [Selanik] can be qualified to teach in Turkish schools. This academy takes much of its intake from Greek secondary schools and, its critics claim, relies on an outdated religious curriculum deliberately to create an incompetent Hellenized education system in Western Thrace isolated from the mainstream of modern Turkish culture. The situation has deteriorated with the authorities introducing an entrance exam for the two Turkish secondary minority schools in Komotini and Xanthi - there are some 300 Turkish primary schools - and a directorate from the government in March 1984 stipulating that graduate examinations from Turkish secondary and high schools have to be in Greek [!]. The implementation of this law in 1985 with, in some cases, merely a few months' notice was extremely hard on the unfortunate students. The result of these measures has been a dramatic decline in secondary school students in Turkish schools from 227 in Xanthi and 305 in Komotini in 1983-4, to 85 and 42, respectively, in 1986-7. Greek history books portray Turks in crude stereotypes and while Turkish pupils are allowed some books from Turkey, there have been inexplicable delays resulting in long outdated textbooks having to be used.

The authorities have also prohibited the use of the adjective "Turkish" in titles denoting associations etc. and the Turkish Teachers Association in Western Thrace was closed by order of Komotini court on 20 March 1986, a decision upheld by the Athens High Court on 28 July 1987.



Protest

As noted above, over a long period there have been many individual complaints by ethnic Turks at the deteriorating position of the minority in Western Thrace. Such protests are apparently gathering force. In the summer of 1988 there was a large scale demonstration by Turks in Komotini which was followed by two bomb
explosions - one in the central mosque and one in a cemetery of a neighbourhood mosque. Nobody was injured in these attacks which Turks see as an act of provocation by the Greeks against the Turkish minority. Additionally, there have been a number of appeals by Turks in Western Thrace to outside bodies like the UN and Council of Europe.
In August 1986, Dr. Sadik Ahmet, a doctor of philosophy from Western Thrace, was arrested along with a collaborator and held for a few days. They were later tried in Thessaloniki [Selanik] and Sadik Ahmet was sentenced to two and a half years' while his co-defendant, Ibrahim Serif, a teacher of theology, received 15 months' imprisonment on charges of spreading false information and falsifying some five or six signatures after they had sent a petition containing around 13,000 signatures to the UN and the Council of Europe alleging a policy of assimilation and forced emigration by the Greek authorities and detailing many of the complaints already listed. Both were released pending appeal which was due to be held in December 1988 but was postponed, apparently due to pressure by human rights groups like Amnesty International.

On 18 June 1989 Sadik Ahmet stood for Parliament as an independent Turkish candidate and was elected with some 32% of the vote, illustrating the support for him among the Turkish population. Sadik Ahmet and Ibrahim Serif were tried again on January 1990 by Rodope Court of Petty Sessions and sentenced to 18 months' imprisonment and three years deprivation of civil rights. The charges related to an election communication they, along with Ismail Molla Rodoplu, distributed prior to the general elections in November 1989. Ahmet's candidacy in this election was disqualified on a technicality, but Rodoplu was elected and so immune from prosecution. In this manifesto they called on Turks to vote for them as independent Muslim candidates standing on a list they called 'Trust'. They stated that the main Greek political parties 'spread an atmosphere of terror in the towns and villages' in order to intimidate the minority and gain their votes. Ahmet and Serif were charged with Article 163 of the penal code ('spreading false information') due to this claim of 'Terror', and Article 192 (which penalizes those 'provoking or inciting citizens to acts of violence amongst themselves or to mutual discord and disrupting the public peace') for claiming the existence of a 'Turkish' minority in Greece. This latter charge was made because of the
violent clashes which had occurred. They were acquitted of the first charge but found guilty of the second.

On 29 January, further violent incidents occurred between ethnic Turks and Orthodox Greeks in Komotini in which 19 people were reportedly injured and Muslim property damaged. A Greek reportedly died following a fight with a Muslim in Komotini hospital. The verdicts against Ahmet and Serif was upheld on appeal on 30 March but their sentences were reduced to 15 months' and 10 months' imprisonment, respectively. They were both given the option of paying a fine instead of serving their sentences - Ahmet, 1000 drachmae per day of sentence, and Serif, 400 drachmae. This amounted to a total of 540,000 drachmae (about $4000). They both paid and were released.

On 8 April Dr. Ahmet was elected to parliament on the 'Trust' list and although he had been deprived of his civil rights for three years, a court in Komotini ruled he could stand in the elections. He still faces charges under Article 192 similar to those above relating to a declaration he made to the Turkish language newspaper Guven on 17 November 1989, and a leaflet of 22 November 1989 and in January there were reports that the Greek authorities were planning moves to remove his parliamentary immunity from prosecution.

Dr. Sadik Ahmet is now well established as the leader of the ethnic Turks in Western Thrace and the Greek authorities who persecute him have only served to reinforce his position. There have been reports that the Turkish government of Turgut Ozal viewed the pre-eminence of Ahmet and the worsening relations between ethnic Turks and Greeks in Western Thrace with some alarm and even contemplated a deal with Mitsotakis to remove Ahmet from the political scene.

The situation appears to be becoming more serious with increased polarization of the communities in Western Thrace and while some of the complaints, like the alleged policy of resettling unemployed Turks in other areas being a deliberate policy of assimilation, may be exaggerated, the facts add up to an apparent deliberate policy of discrimination with a long-term aim of assimilation akin to that carried out against the Macedonians by successive Greek governments. Against this escalating policy there appears to be growing discontent among the Turks in Western Thrace which might explode in the future.
User avatar
zan
Leading Contributor
Leading Contributor
 
Posts: 16213
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 8:55 pm

Postby DT. » Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:51 pm

only got as far as the mufti's so quick question...in Turkey who appoints the muftis?
User avatar
DT.
Leading Contributor
Leading Contributor
 
Posts: 12684
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 8:34 pm
Location: Lefkosia

PreviousNext

Return to Cyprus Problem

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests