Cyprus-Forum.com

[CopperLine]

Nikitas,
I know that you said it was a rhetorical question

Would the opposition have been as intense if the TRNC was simply RNC?

but to answer a might-have-been of history, I'd say no. If the T army had withdrawn in c. late 1970s, or certainly by time Greece joined EEC, and even if a separate republic had been declared, the strength with which one could assert that this (RNC) was not a republic derived from Turkey (as opposed to a republic in which the Turkish language was spoken by Cypriots) would have proved decisive. Anyway, that's my historical speculation.

[Nikitas]

I may be touching a nerve here but I will risk it.

Often it is evident that the problem in Cyprus is more one of humiliation more than anything else. For Turkish Cypriots it is humiliating to have been cowed by their former subjects. Dont forget that the 60s were almost within living memory of 1878 and the time of the Ottoman rule.

Likewise, for the Greek Cypriot side the invasion and occupation is a humiliating return to the times of Ottoman rule and the notions of "rayiadism".

The types of crimes carried out by BOTH sides, (all THREE sides if we include Turkey) play on this theme of humiliation, noneed to elaborate on this. Humiliation is very hard to forget and forgive. And this may explain the intractable nature of the Cyprus issue and of the Greek Turkish differences in general.

To keep in line with the thread- and keep the author happy- what can the Turkish Cypriots do in this context? Look at what they have now, in comparison with 1878 and understand how much better off they can be in comparison with their mainland counterparts. Pride can displace humiliation. And also realise that the humiliation was more than paid for by the other side.

[Viewpoint]

I may be touching a nerve here but I will risk it.

Often it is evident that the problem in Cyprus is more one of humiliation more than anything else. For Turkish Cypriots it is humiliating to have been cowed by their former subjects. Dont forget that the 60s were almost within living memory of 1878 and the time of the Ottoman rule.

Likewise, for the Greek Cypriot side the invasion and occupation is a humiliating return to the times of Ottoman rule and the notions of "rayiadism".

The types of crimes carried out by BOTH sides, (all THREE sides if we include Turkey) play on this theme of humiliation, noneed to elaborate on this. Humiliation is very hard to forget and forgive. And this may explain the intractable nature of the Cyprus issue and of the Greek Turkish differences in general.

To keep in line with the thread- and keep the author happy- what can the Turkish Cypriots do in this context? Look at what they have now, in comparison with 1878 and understand how much better off they can be in comparison with their mainland counterparts. Pride can displace humiliation. And also realise that the humiliation was more than paid for by the other side.

The ultimate humiliation would be living in a GC state as a minority and gifting your country in whole to GCs. The daily humiliation for having to converse in Greek as the "majority" would in insist and the humiliation of having to dance to the tune of a GC government elected by the "majority" of GCs would be the ultimate blow for TCs, the current stalemate is 1000 times better than a future where we are foreigners in our own country.

[Nikitas]

Viewpoint

Re the language situation. I posted a couple of times on the need to understand each other's language but not speak it. If you recal there were the examples of the aerospace engineers in France and England who were trained this way and managed to build the Concord plane. Having this ability means that we follow what is being said in the media and by politicians.

Now you took the post to a hypthetical future extreme. I was referring to humiliations past, which affects things today. Apparently I did hit a nerve with you.

[zan]

Viewpoint

Re the language situation. I posted a couple of times on the need to understand each other's language but not speak it. If you recal there were the examples of the aerospace engineers in France and England who were trained this way and managed to build the Concord plane. Having this ability means that we follow what is being said in the media and by politicians.

Now you took the post to a hypthetical future extreme. I was referring to humiliations past, which affects things today. Apparently I did hit a nerve with you.

I think you have over simplified this whole thing by a very large margin Nkiitas. Do you really believe that all the TC public and the politicians and the business men are just trying to save face........That is about as insulting as it gets I am afraid. Does the thought that we might actually be fighting this thing from a point of justice....You have made up your mind that the "RoC" is just and legal and fine for us....We have yet to be convinced....I would rather show the world that we are decent enough to come to a proper and just decision then save face by staying in my own republic.....Lets get some perspective on this shall we

[Nikitas]

Viewpoint,

It hit me just now as I was referring to your post. You lived for about a hundred years under British ruel with Greek being spoken all around you, with most civil servants being Greek, dancingto the tune of a truly foreign government, how come that did not affect you so violently?

[zan]

Viewpoint,

It hit me just now as I was referring to your post. You lived for about a hundred years under British ruel with Greek being spoken all around you, with most civil servants being Greek, dancingto the tune of a truly foreign government, how come that did not affect you so violently?

HUH! What happened after that Nikitas?????

[Nikitas]

Zan,

It is not a question of saving face. It is a collective memory of humiliations past.

Take a comparison that will elucidate. The Nazis killed directly or indirectly one million Greeks. In retreat they destroyed most of the country's infrastructure. That was within living memory and they finally refused to honor their reparation promises. Yet today Greeks do not perceive the Germans as a hated enemy.

THe last major Greek-Turkish conflict was in 1920 and animosity over that is definitely a present day phenomenon. What is the difference? In my view, the humiliation of the other side, carried out by both sides, something prevalent in the Greek-Turkish conflict but not others.

I recall a rough poster put up by Greek Cypriot attackers in a village in Cyprus: "we the big dicks of village X fucked the daughters of X of village X" the x is to protect the reputations of the victims. This was done by people who knew each other by name. And there was plenty of payback in 1974 with just as much humiliation left behind.

It is hard to let go of such experiences. That is what makes the Greek Turkish conflicts so hard to solve. It does not affect the legality of the other side. It makes the other side unforgivable in our minds. That is what I was trying to put across.

[Nikitas]

Zan, it was what was happening during it that interests me. If it is such a choking experience for Turkish Cypriots to live in a Greek dominated culture how come they managed to do just that during the British rule? Most of the civils service was Greek run, and Greek was spoken then as it is now. Why was it not intolerable then?

[zan]

Zan,

It is not a question of saving face. It is a collective memory of humiliations past.

Take a comparison that will elucidate. The Nazis killed directly or indirectly one million Greeks. In retreat they destroyed most of the country's infrastructure. That was within living memory and they finally refused to honor their reparation promises. Yet today Greeks do not perceive the Germans as a hated enemy.

THe last major Greek-Turkish conflict was in 1920 and animosity over that is definitely a present day phenomenon. What is the difference? In my view, the humiliation of the other side, carried out by both sides, something prevalent in the Greek-Turkish conflict but not others.

I recall a rough poster put up by Greek Cypriot attackers in a village in Cyprus: "we the big dicks of village X fucked the daughters of X of village X" the x is to protect the reputations of the victims. This was done by people who knew each other by name. And there was plenty of payback in 1974 with just as much humiliation left behind.

It is hard to let go of such experiences. That is what makes the Greek Turkish conflicts so hard to solve. It does not affect the legality of the other side. It makes the other side unforgivable in our minds. That is what I was trying to put across.

If that was the case then the Annan Plan would have received an OXI from both sides so it does go to show that it is not the first and foremost thought in peoples minds. Please don't go into the rubbish about people knowing what they actually voted for...That is simply not the case.