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Tassos, Federalism, and the Annan Plan

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby insan » Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:03 am

Conversely, disruptive circumstances should not be present – such as willingness of powerful neighbouring states, sharing ethnicity with major groups in the state’s population, to intervene in their perceived self-interest.



Alexandros wrote:

He is obviously concerned here about how Turkey would intervene in the politics of the TCCS.


In my opinion, TC community has understood that the only way for them to survive as a respected community in this merciless capitalist world is to always have good relations with Turkey. This does not mean they will not build good even better relations with GC community in a united Cyprus. Also this does not mean, having Turkey back TC community would stimulate TCs to exploit the power they have in order to cause collapse of the United Cyprus and achieve Taksim. TC and Turkish side well aware of that the only way to put a full stop to Cyprus dispute is reunification of Cyprus on a bi-communal, bi-zonal basis; including "political equality". In case of an agreed partition,a seperate TC state on North of Cyprus; there's no doubt would create some new troubles and headaches for all relevant parties in the region and for their allies as well. Thus, trying to weaken and even cut off TC's relations with Turkey is neither feasible nor rational. Nevertheless, it is a known fact that in the past 50 years neither Greece, nor GC leadership have given trustworthy messages to TC community and Turkey. You may still have been asserting that "political equality" between %18 and %82 is not fair but for the sake of uniting Cyprus you may feel yourself have been obliged to compromise for this for a while until the right time comes to put the political schemes in order to create impressions that how political equality could be exploited by TCs. In 60s we exprienced this with Akritas Plan. I believe that GC leadership and GC community should be honest and sincere about the "political equality" of two communities. I assume that the real problem here is digesting the "political equality" of %18 and %82 not the concerns about exploitation of "political equality" by TCs alone or together with Turkey.

Under a 50/50 power sharing position, both sides take the same risks concerns and responsibilities. Everything is possible. It is obvious that potential risk of partition is less than the potential risk of GC attempt to abolish "political equality" and replace it with "majority rule".[/quote]
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Postby Alexandros Lordos » Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:12 pm

Insan,

I understand your point of view, but let's focus for a moment on what Tassos is actually accepting in the Annan Plan and what he is asking as a change. To summarise:

- He accepts that TCs should have their own constituent state, and that GCs should not be able to dominate it.

- He implicitly accepts that the Federal Senate should be 50/50 between GCs and TCs, thus giving TCs Equality in the Legislative functions of the Federal Government.

- He doesn't accept that on top of this 50/50 equality there should also be a quota of TC senators to agree with each legislative decision. He believes that such quotas will make decision making ineffective and lead the administration to paralysis.

- Similarly, he doesn't accept that there should be a quota of TC presidential council members in support of each executive decision. He would argue that TCs are sufficiently well protected by the fact that the Presidential Council would be elected on a 50/50 basis by the Senate, and by the fact that it would be obliged to act according to Senate-approved laws anyway.

- Having said that, he believes that there should be a place for proportional representation as well as a place for equality of constituent states. In other words, he wouldn't condone making the Presidential Council composition, or the House of Deputies composition, 50/50 as well. He would argue that all Federations operate with such a mixture of "political equality" and "majority rule", as it is the only mutually acceptable way to compromise the "popular demands" of the people in the larger and in the smaller constituent states.

So, Insan, my question to you (and to other TCs in this forum) is: On these specific arguments and proposals, where do you stand?
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Postby erolz » Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:48 pm

Alexandros Lordos wrote:Insan,

I understand your point of view, but let's focus for a moment on what Tassos is actually accepting in the Annan Plan and what he is asking as a change. To summarise:

- He accepts that TCs should have their own constituent state, and that GCs should not be able to dominate it.

- He implicitly accepts that the Federal Senate should be 50/50 between GCs and TCs, thus giving TCs Equality in the Legislative functions of the Federal Government.

- He doesn't accept that on top of this 50/50 equality there should also be a quota of TC senators to agree with each legislative decision. He believes that such quotas will make decision making ineffective and lead the administration to paralysis.

- Similarly, he doesn't accept that there should be a quota of TC presidential council members in support of each executive decision. He would argue that TCs are sufficiently well protected by the fact that the Presidential Council would be elected on a 50/50 basis by the Senate, and by the fact that it would be obliged to act according to Senate-approved laws anyway.

- Having said that, he believes that there should be a place for proportional representation as well as a place for equality of constituent states. In other words, he wouldn't condone making the Presidential Council composition, or the House of Deputies composition, 50/50 as well. He would argue that all Federations operate with such a mixture of "political equality" and "majority rule", as it is the only mutually acceptable way to compromise the "popular demands" of the people in the larger and in the smaller constituent states.

So, Insan, my question to you (and to other TCs in this forum) is: On these specific arguments and proposals, where do you stand?


I agree with a mix of political equality and majority rule as a principal.

I however do find it hard to 'trust' the sincerity of TP :( It is 'easy' to say these things and easy (for me at least) to understand why he might say them whilst not actually believing them. I am not saying that he IS insincere about these issues, just that it is not easy for me to hold a conviction that he is sincere. Where this leaves us I am not sure?
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Postby insan » Sun Mar 06, 2005 2:09 pm

- He doesn't accept that on top of this 50/50 equality there should also be a quota of TC senators to agree with each legislative decision. He believes that such quotas will make decision making ineffective and lead the administration to paralysis.


So, you mean that he has concerns about 24+6, 23+7, 22+8, 21+9, 20+10, 19+11, 18+12, 17+13 etc. He asks 24+1 and 1+24 for simple majority in Senate and believes that with this way the decision making in Senate will become more effective.

Don't you think that in cases except 17+13 or 13+17, there is at least one or more things wrong that might cause hardcore polarizations in Senate? For politicians it's easy to form alliances based upon 25 vote simple majority. It is hard to form an alliance based upon 30+ and it is harder to based the alliance 15+ of the number of Senators each side have. If the Senators fail to form the latter, the bill nedds to be checked and balanced by presidential council.

- Similarly, he doesn't accept that there should be a quota of TC presidential council members in support of each executive decision. He would argue that TCs are sufficiently well protected by the fact that the Presidential Council would be elected on a 50/50 basis by the Senate, and by the fact that it would be obliged to act according to Senate-approved laws anyway.


But he asks that there should be a quota of GC presidential council members in support of each executive decision? As far as I can judge, I consider presidential council as a kind of bi-communal checks and balances system. It is a must and related with the possible to be appear unbalanced situations in Senate.

- Having said that, he believes that there should be a place for proportional representation as well as a place for equality of constituent states. In other words, he wouldn't condone making the Presidential Council composition, or the House of Deputies composition, 50/50 as well. He would argue that all Federations operate with such a mixture of "political equality" and "majority rule", as it is the only mutually acceptable way to compromise the "popular demands" of the people in the larger and in the smaller constituent states.



I'd like to ask him:

- Mr T-Pap; would you approve a bill which has been introduced by 3/4 of TC senators and voted in favour by 1/4+ 1 or 2 or 3 of GC senators or would you veto it?

What do you think Alexandros? Would he approve it or veto it?
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Postby -mikkie2- » Sun Mar 06, 2005 2:56 pm

- Mr T-Pap; would you approve a bill which has been introduced by 3/4 of TC senators and voted in favour by 1/4+ 1 or 2 or 3 of GC senators or would you veto it?


Thats the whole point Insan. It is the presidential council that will decide not an individual. Tell me how TP could veto?
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Postby insan » Sun Mar 06, 2005 4:34 pm

-mikkie2- wrote:
- Mr T-Pap; would you approve a bill which has been introduced by 3/4 of TC senators and voted in favour by 1/4+ 1 or 2 or 3 of GC senators or would you veto it?


Thats the whole point Insan. It is the presidential council that will decide not an individual. Tell me how TP could veto?


mikkie,

Alexandros suggests that T-Pap is against the presidential council or as far as I understood Alexandros suggests that T-Pap is against "political equality" of two communities at presidential council. In both cases, approval of a bill either would be given to GC dominated presidential council or the president of Cyprus.
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Postby Alexandros Lordos » Sun Mar 06, 2005 4:41 pm

-mikkie2- wrote:
- Mr T-Pap; would you approve a bill which has been introduced by 3/4 of TC senators and voted in favour by 1/4+ 1 or 2 or 3 of GC senators or would you veto it?


Thats the whole point Insan. It is the presidential council that will decide not an individual. Tell me how TP could veto?


I think Insan is right here. If all bills need to be approved by the Presidential Council and the House of Deputies as well (let's not forget the House of Deputies) where Greek Cypriot majorities will apply, it is hard to see how a bill that is more favorable to TCs than to GCs would ever pass. On the other hand, it is easy to see how a bill that is more favorable to GCs than TCs would have no problem passing.

So, just as the current system of qualified majorities in the Annan Plan is open to abuse by those who might desire the paralysis and partition of the state, so the alternative of NOT having qualified majorities is open to abuse by those who would like to impose majority rule on the TCs.

What are we to do? This is a Win-Lose situation here ...

I think the answer is to be found "in a different dimension": What we should seek to influence are the motives of politicians, and make sure that they have a "vested personal interest" in being co-operative on the Federal Level. Politicians, as we know, fear one thing and one thing only: The voter. The voter has the power to end a politician's career and send him home to early retirement ...

If every TC senator needs to satisfy GC voters as well, and if every GC member of the Presidential Council needs to satisfy TC voters also, you will see how they will solve all their problems and disagreements in no time ...

Therefore, my answer to Tassos' concerns of "dysfunctionality" and "inadequate decision making mechanisms" is NOT to remove qualified majorities, but rather to insist on Cross-Voting as the method for electing Federal officials, both in the Senate and in the Presidential Council.
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Postby -mikkie2- » Sun Mar 06, 2005 4:46 pm

Ok, I accept the criticism!

But we really need to find a way where veto by an individual does not bring things to a grinding halt.

Well, the issue really boils down to political rights for all citizens no matter where they live.
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Postby insan » Sun Mar 06, 2005 4:55 pm

Therefore, my answer to Tassos' concerns of "dysfunctionality" and "inadequate decision making mechanisms" is NOT to remove qualified majorities, but rather to insist on Cross-Voting as the method for electing Federal officials, both in the Senate and in the Presidential Council.


Has he ever had such an idea? Has he ever refered about such an alternative?
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Postby Alexandros Lordos » Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:08 pm

insan wrote:
Therefore, my answer to Tassos' concerns of "dysfunctionality" and "inadequate decision making mechanisms" is NOT to remove qualified majorities, but rather to insist on Cross-Voting as the method for electing Federal officials, both in the Senate and in the Presidential Council.


Has he ever had such an idea? Has he ever refered about such an alternative?


The idea has been floating since the 1970s, all GC politicians are aware of it, but perhaps Tassos has not fully understood the implications it would have for decision making ...

I know for sure that Talat tends to look favorably upon cross-voting.
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