Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

Viwpoint, the TCs are 18% and they illegally occupy the 36%. So maybe you left something behind, but you illegally got double that.

[erolz]

Look I did not mean to 'kick this all off' again.

I just wanted to make the point that 'justice' and a call for 'justice' can include a lot more than just property.

So when Piratis said 'there will be justice' I asked if he meant there will be justice re propoerty or there will be justice in general ?

When magicthrill's sig says there can be no peace without justice does he mean there can be no peace withpout justice over property or does he mean there can be no peace without justice in general? If he means the latter then it is a pretty depressing view for there being peace - as I think the chance for there being justice in general is zero. If he means the former then perhaps he should be a bit more specific?

The above makes no mention of GC or TC or who suffered more or less or who stole what or who didn't - so there is no need for such replies as I see it?

In the case of my familys experience the reality is we gave up hope of any justice over this a long time ago. Maybe we should not have. Maybe we should have and should continue to seek justice (an invetigation and bringing to trial those guilty) with the same vigour that GC seek justice over their lost proerty. The again maybe we should not. I do not know. I just know that we have no hope or expectation for such justice.

[Alexandros Lordos]

In the case of my familys experience the reality is we gave up hope of any justice over this a long time ago. Maybe we should not have. Maybe we should have and should continue to seek justice (an invetigation and bringing to trial those guilty) with the same vigour that GC seek justice over their lost property. The again maybe we should not. I do not know.

Perhaps you should, Erol, perhaps you should ...

If you have any evidence of particular persons, Greek Cypriots, who committed war crimes and acts of terror against the Turkish Cypriot community, then you should see that they are brought to justice. If the victims don't press charges against their aggressors, then who is to stop criminals from walking free? ...

The law has been ignored for too long in Cyprus - on both sides of the line. Perhaps it is time to start doing something about it ...

[Agios Amvrosios]

Erolz wrote:

In the case of my familys experience the reality is we gave up hope of any justice over this a long time ago. Maybe we should not have. Maybe we should have and should continue to seek justice (an invetigation and bringing to trial those guilty) with the same vigour that GC seek justice over their lost property. The again maybe we should not. I do not know.

I think your family should pursue their rights and I think if more people on both sides pursued their rights through legal avenues the effect would assist a step by step resolution.

I think that a truth and reconconcilliation tribunal would greatly assist to heal wounds.

[magikthrill]

When magicthrill's sig says there can be no peace without justice does he mean there can be no peace withpout justice over property or does he mean there can be no peace without justice in general? If he means the latter then it is a pretty depressing view for there being peace - as I think the chance for there being justice in general is zero. If he means the former then perhaps he should be a bit more specific?

Hehe sorry erol but a signarture can only be so detailed!

Anyway my sig is actually related to the Palestinian struggle but I think it applies very well for to the Cyprus problem.

What I mean is that there can be no peace without justice. This could have been seen if Annan plan was implemented in Cyprus since the "united" government would probably ahve collaposed in a few years. The reason why I am assuming this is because the Annan plan was not just.

Secondly, allowing the right to return is one form of serving justice. therefore justice will bring peace. thats why i believe refugees and property issues are a big concern. because there is a way to rbing justice about. how can we bring justice about for all cypriot victims though?

i hope i was clear on this. otherwise let me know and i will try to clarify more.

[Saint Jimmy]

In the case of my familys experience the reality is we gave up hope of any justice over this a long time ago. Maybe we should not have. Maybe we should have and should continue to seek justice (an invetigation and bringing to trial those guilty) with the same vigour that GC seek justice over their lost proerty. The again maybe we should not. I do not know. I just know that we have no hope or expectation for such justice.

OK, so if there's no peace without justice for all, then that includes you, right?
So, I guess, justice for you would be to get as many of those criminals that caused this f**k-up behind bars...?
Maybe it's just a dumb idea, but, seeing as how there's not much you can do legally (these guys were pardoned by presidential order, right?), I'm thinking maybe we could start one of those signature things, where loads of people sign up a petition for something, and then the whole batch is given to some big boy...
How about we make a petition to the T-Pap to revoke the presidential pardon order and get them to be prosecuted and tried...? I'm pretty sure it's not going to work, but as far as I know, that never stopped a true dreamer...
Better still, it could be three identical petitions, one for T-Pap, one for comrade Christofias, and one for the Minister of Justice and Civil Order (is that the title?).
Who knows, it might even create a fuss...

Or maybe it's just a dumb idea...

[erolz]

I think that a truth and reconconcilliation tribunal would greatly assist to heal wounds.

I agree totaly with this. The idea has been mentioned before here but has not gained much 'interest' so far.

It is also an element of a letter I wrote to Cyprus Today (unpuplished by them) just before the Annan Plan vote - relating to the disaperance of an article on the Cyprus Mails web site. Below is a link to this unpublished letter (the missing Cyprus Mails article has now be replaced on their website - after over a year of it being missing for 'technical reasons'. I do not suspect 'foul play' over its disapearance - just incompetence). In the course of seeking to get it replaced I spoke on several occasion to the Editor of the Cyprus Mail and found him to be helpful and understanding - even if it did take over a year to rectify the problem.

http://www.visionmatters.co.uk/cyprus/letter.htm

[magikthrill]

Or maybe it's just a dumb idea...

i think its a great idea. a step forward for both communites.

[erolz]

OK, so if there's no peace without justice for all, then that includes you, right?

If the statement (belief?) is 'there can be no peace without justice' then yes it should mean justice for all. All would include 'me'.

So, I guess, justice for you would be to get as many of those criminals that caused this f**k-up behind bars...?

If there is to be justice in the case of my uncle the first stage would be an investigation of the incident. To my knoweledge there has never been a criminal investigation into his death conducted by an apporiate authority. If such an investigation were to find sufficent evidence then yes justice would call for a trail and if a conviction was secure for some form of punishment for the guilty.

Maybe it's just a dumb idea, but, seeing as how there's not much you can do legally (these guys were pardoned by presidential order, right?), I'm thinking maybe we could start one of those signature things, where loads of people sign up a petition for something, and then the whole batch is given to some big boy...
How about we make a petition to the T-Pap to revoke the presidential pardon order and get them to be prosecuted and tried...? I'm pretty sure it's not going to work, but as far as I know, that never stopped a true dreamer...
Better still, it could be three identical petitions, one for T-Pap, one for comrade Christofias, and one for the Minister of Justice and Civil Order (is that the title?).
Who knows, it might even create a fuss...

Or maybe it's just a dumb idea...

Like I say above I really am not sure if such a pursuit of 'justice' would be of 'value' to either Cyprus in general or to my Aunt in particular. I do prefer the idea of 'truth and reconcillation' comission for cases such as these. The whole point of such a comission as I understand it is to allow the truth to be know so reconcillation can happen without the 'vengance' element of punishment for the guilty. I think this is more apporiate to trying to create a united cyprus - but it falls short of 'justice' - which requires some punishment of the guilty.

I have to admit at various times in the past I have considered investigating what legal recourse there may be to peruse the RoC under some kind of failure of the 'duty of care' it had to protect my uncle. The motivation for this has always come (for me personaly) not from seeking justice be served on those who killed my uncle. I first starting thinking about in realtion to 'justice' in comparission to things like the Loziadou case in the ECHR and that if it was deemed 'justice' that seh should recieve x amount of dollars for the loss of use of her property for x number of years then how much would the same body consider 'just' for the loss to my aunt and her children of her husband and their father for x+ number of years. Howver this has always remained an 'idea'.

I do not know if such approaches (either seeking justice for those who comitted the murders or seeking justice for the RoC's failiure to protect my uncle or investigate / prosecute those who comitted the crime) will help 'Cyprus' (or my aunt) or not? Is it not 'dragging up the past'? I do not know.

Finally I would just add a comment to Piratis previous comment

but some people use the real (or imaginary) losses of loved ones in the past as an exclude for the violation of human rights of other innocent people, and this is definitely not right.

I think it is true that events like those that befell my uncle can and are used for 'propaganda'. To a degree I myself can be guilty of this. The personal grief I feel from the loss of my uncle is minimal. I never knew him personaly (he was murderd 2 years before I was born) and as such my 'emotional' conection to him is not the same as say an uncle that I personaly knew. I do use what happened to him at times as a 'counter' to claims that the problem in Cyprus started in 74 or it is only necessary to solve the problems created in 74 to achieve unity (though never to justify what happend to GC in 74 only to 'balance' it) or expressions that the Cyuprus problem is an issue of the loss and suffering of GC since 74 (and nothing else). Whilst admitting my own 'guilt' to this accusation I also feel that I have to say that this kind of thing (over stressing pain and suffering for 'political' reasons) is not something that TC alone can be fairly accused off. It is endemic to both sides in the Cyprus problem.

[Agios Amvrosios]

criminal investigation into his death conducted by an apporiate authority

I think that an independant authority staffed by GC & TC experts should be set up A.S.A.P to investigate all these things that are quite simply crimes. Waiting for an eventual solution before these crimes are investigate will never allow the ghosts of the past rest in peace.


Diplomacy and Politics cannot conveniently sweep the injustices of the past under the rug. Criminal on both sides should not be allowed to grow old and happy enjoying their freedom while the victims and the families of their victims continue to suffer and lose faith in justice.